We’ve been talking about who we choose and how we choose when we choose. We’ve talked of “broken choosers” and how we continue to pick the same person, a wolf in bananahead clothing, over and over again. And we’ve wondered HOW OR WHY OR WHAT is wrong and how do I fix it.
A lot changed for me when I stepped out of “victim” mode and realized I was somewhat culpable in my own misery by choosing who I chose as partners. For most of my life I didn’t know that I didn’t know and I (and my relationships) was not my fault. I had abuse, abandonment, low self-esteem, etc etc issues that were unacknowledged and unhealed. I was, frankly, a mess.
I had so much unfinished business and was an unhealthy mess that I gravitated toward what I knew—people who would abuse and abandon me…but that was not – on a conscious level – what I was doing. What I thought I was doing was looking for people to love me. I could recite, chapter and verse, my first husband’s saving graces, his loving gestures, how GREAT he was in the beginning.
In fact, the superb beginning boyfriend that he was kept me hooked for a very long time. I don’t know when it happened or how it happened, but it happened. He TURNED. He turned from the beginning boyfriend into something really unhealthy and attacking and undermining…and when I would get ready to leave…he would turn back…and so it went…for years and years…there was abandonment, abuse, infidelity and craziness until my head was about to pop off. I didn’t know which way was up and I didn’t know how much of it was my fault (according to him, all of it) or what do do about it.
I found later that water does seek its own level and, thus, I was scraping the bottom of the barrel. But instead of figuring out what I had to do with it, I wanted someone to fix me, to take me away from the users and abusers without asking the important question, “What is it in ME that WANTS TO ATTRACT THESE LOSERS? What dance do I need to dance? What fight am I trying to win? What unfinished business am I trying to finish through these dysfunctional relationships?”
But that was the question I needed to ask. After I left that marriage and grew healthier, my partners reflected that for the most part…but I would in some crazy way…wind up in the soup yet again and not be able to see why. Each relationship presented me with a lesson I needed to learn. After I left the abusers (those who represented my struggle with my abusive mother), I would meet those who were emotionally unavailable (my fathers) or who would abandon me (just about all my screwy parents).
There were also “false prophets” as I called them. Growing up I had the need to make up sensational stories about who I was and where I came from because the truth was so difficult for me. In the 8th grade I made up entire family members who didn’t exist. I don’t know what that was about, but it could not remain insular. I attracted psychopathical liars for a time. And after my separation I started a new job where, at 30, I didn’t talk about my children. I wanted to keep the nuttiness of my life and my divorce out of the workplace. I never intended to become good friends with people there (I did). I just wanted to keep the insanity of my divorce, custody battle and home life out of my professional life. People didn’t even KNOW I had kids.
Thinking I was protecting myself, I never thought of it as being false and certainly not lying. But it’s amazing how many people with “lying by omission” I tended to meet in those days. And I never connected the two.
Even though I went into some relationships “healthy,” unhealthy behaviors on the part of my partner – not evident in the beginning – would slowly erode me…there would be subtle manipulation or passive aggressive behavior and it would continue and I would be sliding, sliding, sliding without realizing it. After a while I would realize I was thinking and acting and feeling crazy…usually the one in the relationship who was acting out crazy…feeling nuts and acting nuts…and my partner would be under-reacting or just passively going along…even though he was triggering me, I looked like the crazy person.
I did the under reactor/over reactor dance for a while. It was the dance my parents did. My father was passive aggressive and would make my mother so crazy, she would get violent or suicidal or both.
Every time I would “go there,” it would take me a while to go “Oh wait a minute, here I am in Crazyville again…need. to. get. out. dump. boyfriend. is. making. me. crazy. and. I. am. allowing. it…”
In one such relationship with an addict who stopped going to meetings, I was feeling so nuts after his increasingly strange behavior was triggering me over and over again…and I was so deep in crazy soup, I actually went to Al-Anon for a few meetings and then realized what was going on.
Here I was at yet another meeting and he was home being dysfunctional. Whoa Whoa Whoa. Al-Anon is a wonderful organization and I met the most wonderful people there but it was a fourth thing I was adding to a schedule that was already jammed with therapy, support groups and 12 step meetings. And I had kids to raise and a job to do. The last thing I needed was another meeting because someone in my life was not taking care of his stuff. NO. I got some sanity at Al-Anon.
There is some utility to understanding addiction if you are involved with an addict and some utility in understanding mental illness if you are with someone mentally ill…especially when it comes to what can and cannot be changed (as in the case of narcissists)…but the bulk of the work is looking at you and what your reactions are to someone else’s acting out, underacting, being crazy…
It is also helpful to know it’s not your fault. You can’t make someone drink or use or be crazy. You can’t turn a formerly sweet person into the monster from hell. It’s not your fault. Don’t try to go back and think, “If only I didn’t get mad, there would be no reason to drink.” NO NO NO. But after a while a partner has to figure out how to live with or NOT live with, the situation.
So who owned this situation between me and my recovering-addict-not-going-to-meetings? Well I did but I was not, as I announced to him later that night, willing to be the “long-suffering girlfriend in Al-Anon.” He needed to get back to meetings or get out of my life. As I’ve said before, NEVER give an ultimatum you’re not prepared to enforce and I was, absolutely, willing to enforce it. He went back, he became re-functional and we went on… But I was crazy for a while because his dysfunctionality crept up on me and I wasn’t aware of the insidiousness of living with an addict who was not picking up but wasn’t going to meetings. It just sorta happened and that is how relatively healthy people can become unglued.
It had snuck up on me…we had both been happy and functioning and then he stopped going to meetings and slowly became critical and difficult and hard to please. He started picking at me and I went into full on defense mode and slowly but surely my sanity started to slip away…my baseline codependence came back…my dysfunctional “know how” kicked in and I started doing the dance I knew how to do…from way back when. It happens. Even if you’re healthy and doing well, an increasingly crazy person can undermine your pinnings and unmoor you from your dock..and you’re far out to sea before you even realize it.
Some are attracted to alcoholics or addicts (drugs, food, sex etc addicts), that does not make you an alcoholic, but a co-alcoholic or co-addict (or codependent). And as we all know, co-addicts and co-alcoholics have a specific set of behaviors all of their own and it can be worked on and changed. Not every co-alcoholic also has addictive behaviors except to be addicted to the addict. But there may not be a secondary addiction like food or something else. Sometimes co-addicts are simply codependent and addicted/attracted to people with “problems.” That is the hallmark of a codependent.
Some are attracted to abusers. That does not make you an abuser but most likely someone who is comfortable around abusers (abuse in early years?) or has such low self-esteem, they think they “deserve” it somehow.
One thing that KEPT me in abusive relationships was the idea that taking responsibility for being in abusive relationships was somehow “blaming the victim” and should be discarded. NO, it was NOT my FAULT, but I had and continue to have and will ALWAYS have, responsibility for what happens to me. It was not until I took OFF the cloak of “victim” that I got better. I didn’t know that I didn’t know, but once I KNEW, once I was given some tools to work with, I had the responsibility to do something about ME and change the situation. I can’t change abusers, but I can change my attraction to them by working on that in me which seemed to crave them….and I did and they disappeared from my life.
Sometimes you are healthy and functioning at a certain level and then you get into some relationship that slowly erodes your health and happiness. Be it with a passive aggressive crazy person or a smooth talking narcissist, one day you wake up and find that the person you wanted to be and used to be has left the building.
All of us who have had issues in the past have inroads to that former craziness. If we are with crazy people who are masquerading as normal people, the next thing we know our health and welfare has been chipped away and we are left feeling crazy and abused and asking ourselves, “OH DEAR, how did I get HERE again?” or we are basically normal people with happy childhoods and functional parents and yet have been turned into blithering idiots because we’ve been with someone who has a problem (alcoholic, narcissist) for way too long. The sanity of our former selves are nowhere in evidence.
Perhaps it’s just a small need to be needed or a small need to be recognized as a good person…but that small need has kept us attached far too long…and now we must extract ourselves AND admit to that small need which has made our life a living hell. We’ve been bamboozled and misled, but part of us went along for the ride ignoring the small voice in the back of our head that said “DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER.”
Some are attracted to people with personality disorders. That does not mean you have a personality disorder but something about these IMPOSSIBLE relationships works for you. Again, this is not blame the victim, but something is working for you in being with these people who are NOT able to be intimate. Fear of intimacy? Need to control and try to triumph over it (forget it, never going to happen)….etc etc.
Sometimes our own insecurities and holes lead us to be the rescuer, the strong one…the one to be needed. If we are the one who is needed, perhaps they will never leave. But they do…and then the unlucky loser who is SO beneath us walks out on us and there is no worse blow to the self-esteem. Wait. You’re walking out on me? Are you kidding me?
It’s all something in us that attracts THAT. It’s not the same thing…it’s NOT that we have a personality disorder or a disorder or an imbalance or whatever it is that keeps us locked in these less-than-satisfying relationships with these less-than-optimum people..…the intimacy dances we do are much more complex and complicated than that…but it’s “something.”
It could be something as simple as low self-esteem or the need to be the hero, the “fixer”, the one who is heads above the mental case we’re involved with. Other times it’s a martyr behavior…we want people to feel sorry for us and give us big kudos for dealing with Mr. or Ms. Problem Person. Get off that schtick. It’s not working.
So it’s imperative to learn our most important lesson which is usually NOT “what is wrong with them?” but “What is it about ME that caused me to wind up here?”
Ask and answer honestly and life changes.
I spent the last 2 days in Crazyville trying to figure out what was wrong with my ex. I had gone NC and he called me a couple of times over the weekend leaving me voice messages asking that i call him. getting those messages made me absolutely crazy and anxious. i made the mistake of calling him and of course he didn’t answer my calls or texts and i spent 2 days calling him until something in my brain clicked and said STOP! this morning i woke up anxious with the urge to call him again and ask him why he called. reading your post this morning has really brought me back to Earth. i won’t be calling him. thank you!
Celina,
Crazyville really is not a fun place to be. I’ve been there the last few days as well. …We must have “missed” each other! :-)
Hello Susan,
Great post! I read “Water seeking its own level” and coupled with this one it has helped me to shift my perspective.
You said: “Let go.” in response to one of my posts. I have been ruminating over this and asking myself why can’t I let go. I need to let go of the resentment that I carry regarding my mother and my ex n. I know that loneliness plays a large part. Last night I pulled out the “relationship inventory” that I had started. I’m on step 8 (what I did wrong) and I am dreading step 11 (what am I getting out of holding onto it?). Many issues to deal with, but at least I feel like I am back on “track.” I don’t want to live this way for the rest of my life.
And, funny enough, my ex told me that I have to move on with my life. I thought, “Oh great, now he’s the rational one.” So, I could really relate to this part of your post……
“and then the unlucky loser who is SO beneath us walks out on us and there is no worse blow to the self-esteem. Wait. You’re walking out on me? Are you kidding me?”
At least I know that I really once was normal, but got hit upside the head my a nutcase. I’ll get back there. And, I have even started with the affirmations and gratitude lists again. I really feel much more focused that I have these past few days.
And, I set a boundary with the other guy. I saw your: “STAY AWAY FROM MEN.” and didn’t want to do it. But, I set a boundary with him (not the ex). I told him that if he says one more thing which indicates jealousy on his part that I will not speak to him for a week. Well, within 24 hours he did it. So, I simply asked him to leave and not contact me for a week at all.
The funny thing is I really never realized just how weak my boundaries are. While I am proud that I set this boundary and feel more in control, it seems very odd and a bit lonely.
Inevitably, I’m sure that it will pass and I will one day be the person that I would like to be.
Thank you for everything Susan!
Love,
Giovanna
Thanks Susan, like Giovanna above, I got so much from this post and ‘water seeks it’s own level’. Would you consider doing a post on the high chemistry that many of us experience upon meeting a dysfunctional match? I think so many of us, especially us girls believe that there cannot be a relationship without first feeling some kind of chemical buzz. From what I know now, next time I get that buzz feeling, i’m just going to turn around and run! I built the whole fantasy of my last relationship in an instant when I felt a supernova high chemical connection in my brain when I first laid eyes on my ex – yup it felt magical and surreal like a farirytale – because I had found a man at exactly my level of dysfunction that’s why!
“Sometimes you are healthy and functioning at a certain level and then you get into some relationship that slowly erodes your health and happiness. Be it with a passive aggressive crazy person or a smooth talking narcissist, one day you wake up and find that the person you wanted to be and used to be has left the building”
This describes me exactly. In the past after ‘recovering’ from an unhealthy relationship and feeling positive, happy, healthy and well in myself I then fall for the next disordered man in my life. I have had relationships with narcissists, a borderline, bi-polars, paranoids and finally an avoidant man. I think it’s safe to say I have had a penchant for personality disordered men!
It’s 10 months since I ended my relationship with Mr Avoidant – I resisted and resisted letting go of this relationship because I could not face the fact that I had yet again created another fantasy – it wasn’t real, he would never again be the man I ‘knew’ at the beginning of our relationship, in fact he never was that man. The thing with PD’s is they can appear ‘normal’ too but the second that intimacy comes into play, the PD is triggered which in turn triggers any dysfunctions in the co-dependent partner. I am now facing my own unresolved grief and intimacy issues and it’s my hope that I never again deplete myself to such a level. I am so relieved to be out of crazyville, I came very close to never escaping – that was my worst trip ever, and I swear I am not going back.
Thanks Susan for giving your time to support us with this blog and sharing your wisdom and experience.
I think it’s important to be in “observation” mode while dating as I talk about in the book.
When I met Michael I was thinking, “Oh he’s interesting” in that he wasn’t like anyone I had ever met. We talked a lot (for hours) before I agreed to date him and that was just a lunch date, and then we talked for hours before our second date. And I was just being who I was and he was being who he was and neither of us were really looking for fireworks. I didn’t think “Oh I’m not feeling the magic” on the first date and walk away because I wasn’t feeling the magic. I was just observing him and me and taking mental notes. I was observing. I was sitting back, as I talk about.
He had two ex-wives. The first he called “an angel” and he was the bananahead and learned a lot. The second was words I can’t really use here. I liked that not every ending of every relationship was not his fault. I liked that he had some semblence of personal insight. I asked him A LOT of questions that might seem difficult and uncomfortable but it was “let’s cut to the chase…who the hell are you?” and he answered really well (not all smooth and easy but honest and I liked the answers and the honesty).
I talk about falling in love with him — whammo — on our second date on Rope Burns.
Was that typical chemical excitement? No. It was a rich, warm, feeling of “oh my goodness…you are someone I could really love…” The post is here
http://ropeburns.wordpress.com/2009/03/15/visitors/
I don’t know if that answers the question or not.
Thank you so much for this post. I have been in some really bad relationships. In fact, It is sad that say that I have never truly been in love. It seems that I run off the good ones and gravitate to the jerks…I have been asking myself why and I can’t seem to come up with an explanation.
Everytime I meet someone I seem to distrust right from the start. I am always questioning If he likes me and driving myself crazy. Then I will spend the day trying to wait him out for the first call. What is wrong with me?
Kathy
Klaritybelle,
You have explained almost to a “tee” how I have felt in my relationships.
And as for the PD being triggered when intimacy is presented and then that triggering my own issues is exactly what happened….and the problems began and never ended.
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. It is helping me to heal.
I’m glad you can relate to my ’stuff’ Giovanna and it helps to know I have shared similar intimacy issues to you. Like most of us here, I guess I have felt so alone at times about all this kinda stuff – sharing really helps even if it is in cyber space. So good to know so many of us are heading in the right direction now.
Susan, i’m not quite ready to date again yet but when I am, I will keep in mind the observation mode. I am realising recently how dissociated I have been from my own true feelings for most of my life. I have been very tuned in to other peoples feelings all this time but it is kind of strange to ‘feel’ my own.
I enjoyed the story of Mr Racoon!
Susan, this is a great post. I recently realized that the reason I chose my schizoid personality ex-husband was because I was so afraid of the conflict I saw in my home as a child. My parents constantly had horrible violent fights and I wanted to avoid this at all cost. Even as a child, I would watch Star Trek and think of what a lovely challenge it would be to have a relationship with Mr Spock. How safe that would be! I could feel the emotions for him! Well, when I found my husband at the age of 19, I took on that challenge. He was unemotional and I felt safe from all the conflict. But the price I paid was in never having intimacy with another person. My ex would outwardly agree with me and then secretly do whatever he wanted.
In my new relationship, my challenge has been learning how to accept conflict in a relationship. The price of being with someone who has emotions is that they will occasionally raise their voice or get angry. That does not mean they will end up hitting you or treating you cruelly. There is a middle ground between the violence of my childhood and the emptiness of my marriage. I am struggling to learn that I do not have to be afraid to express my feelings and walk on eggshells to avoid conflict. Just because New Guy disagrees with me, it does not mean he is going to abandon me or hurt me.
This has definitely helped me. When I first met my ex, it was a massive rush, too giddy in fact. We had two dates and they were incredibly, so open and fun and exciting. Then a week later whilst he was on holiday he called me at 2am on a Sunday to tell me he was panicking and had run out of anti-depressants and didnt know what to do. I told him to calm down and sleep it off and call me in the morning. The irony being I couldnt sleep that night, having not known him for long I didnt know whether he took meds because he might have a history of feeling suicidal etc. There began the crazy making, admittedly the first few months were wonderful before the disagreeable, shouty monster emerged from him. But I think slow burning curious starts are probably for the best, really getting to know someone and feeling their words and convictions coming across. I feel like I’ve been to hell and back. I totally began to act out of character – my head was always racing, my heart was so open, i was in love and ungrounded. At the point I met him, I felt super fit, healthy and ready but its totally knocked me in six. I felt taken over by him and losing my identity.
I think we all need someone we feel safe with, no questions asked. Patience and understanding.
A few weeks i was talking to my best friend about a guy i had been dating for a little over a month. I was already anxious and feeling really nutty with him. i was telling her how my feelings were triggered after I had gone over to his house and when i got there and reached to give him a kiss and hug; he detangled me from him and said ” we got things to do.”
after a few great weeks of him being so sweet and attentive, he had become frosty and distant. i thought it was just my imagination and that i was being a needy, overly emotional mess — which is a negative mantra I learned from an ex boyfriend.
I started to pull out my self help books and journal and i was trying to find a way to calm down my crazy that had been triggered.
As i was telling her this story I had the sudden realization that i just kept dating the same guy over and over and over again. It was like I was in the movie Groundhog Day and I just kept repeating the same problems, same feelings and same guys. Although they all looked different, each created the same feeling inside of me eventually. They were distant and hard to reach, i asked all the questions and was the outgoing one who would reach out and try to be close. i was the one who created the intimacy and i always felt like a needy little girl with them who just craved and craved their attention. I longed for the moment when they would reach for my hand, kiss my cheek or show me an unexpected gesture of affection and tenderness. it was like feeding the emotionally hungry! once I acknowledged that this guy was just another one of my many stand-bys. I cried because I knew that this meant it was going to have to end. I held on a few more weeks, but after he admitted to having severe emotional issues and didn’t know if he wanted or could have a close relationship with a woman. we broke it off this weekend, amicable but heavy hearted.
I guess the silver lining here is that it took me two months instead of 2 years. But I would really love to figure out how I can just stop. how is it that i keep finding the same guy over and over again? I guess i need to ask myself some serious questions right now.
Hi all,
I spoke in the old check in thread about ‘choosing’ and this guy I am starting to see or ‘date’ who seems really, really great and straightforward and everything you might want, but that I wasn’t feeling it.
So, we had a date Saturday night and also met on Sunday for a few hours. We get on sooooo well! Totally click. Loads in common professionally, in terms of values, and lots of things. But as I said in the old check in thread, I am just NOT attracted to him physically. I really DO understand about not bailing just because you do not feel that old ‘chemical’ attraction rush type feeling. I get it that it certainly is not always a bad sign if that’s not there. But it’s more than that. In fact, I even went a little bit further with him physically than I had intended just to see if there was ANYTHING potentially there for me in that way … but alas, there isn’t. Problem is because we got on sooooo well he thinks we are now in a relationship. And I feel I have to bail. He’s now calling me his girlfriend. I could have said no etc I guess yesterday but I wanted time to think about it – because I want to be sure i am rejecting this possibility for the right reasons.
Susan, guys and gals – seriously, if you are not physically attracted to someone you really do have to leave it there, right?
Am a bit down about it because wow, this guy really is so funny and sweet and interesting, and he went to so much trouble for our weekend dates! You would not believe it – he even brought some small but lovely gifts! He had been so thoughtful, finding out what I liked and organising it. I was astonished. I observed his behaviour in lots of ways and really liked what I saw.
I thought about all sorts of excuses – too busy, too far (he lives a few hundred miles away – but has offered to do the majority of the travelling), but actually i think I may just be honest and say that I think he is fantastic (which I do) but I am just not feeling it that way for him.
i would so love to find someone like this in a ‘package’ (for want of a better term) to which I was attracted. Bummer … Won’t be seeing him for 2 weeks as I am frantic with work, but then I’m going to see him as he has invited me to a very big event. I already agreed to go – last week before we had had this latest date and when I was still hopeful that maybe some level of attraction might be possible. I guess I will have to tell him then when we next see each other, or maybe I should do it beforehand and not go to the event. I don’t know what to do. Doing it by email feels horrible.
Am disappointed but I’ll live. Just worried now about hurting him and he seems really into me. And I don’t say that easily!! He keeps telling me this straight out. And has already told his parents and friends he has met someone special and that we are now a couple. Then asked was I okay with that. I wasn’t (because I think i don’t want to go further) but didn’t want to say it because I needed more time to think and decide, so I just laughed and said let’s take it slow …
Hmm. Not easy.
But I would really appreciate your views on this – if you are not physically attracted to someone you really do have to leave it there, right?
Beatrice11,
Is this Beatrice?
Anyway, I think you actually do have to leave it there.
And give yourself credit for really looking at him and seeing how great he is.
And go ahead and learn any lessons you have to, and be honest and deal with hurt feelings that may have to be dealt with.
And realize that anything like this is a good sign…that this means there is someone out there who is great like this person but who will attract you physically.
Hey Serenity :-)
Yep, this is Beatrice.
Thanks for your feedback. I think so too :-(
Just have to decide whether to do it soonish by phone/email or wait for 2 weeks when I was going to meet him. I might have to wait until I see him, the event he has invited me to is very high profile and he has told everyone I’m going with him. Jeeez, I don’t know.
I’m also finding it interesting cause this has happened before. I had a terrible dysfunctional relationship with an ex years ago. Then when that ended, very soon after I met a wonderful guy but there was little to no physical attraction. But I forced myself to go with it because he was so wonderful and sweet and genuine and was so into me. We were together and engaged for 7 years. I eventually left him for my recent dysfunctional ex (yes, I was the bananahead in that case) to whom I was beyond attracted.
Here I am again. Perhaps I am being tested to see if I have learned my lesson this time?
I am not looking for that crazy over the top rush of attraction. I understand that it often a bad sign. But i do want to find my partner attractive. And I think that’s normal.
Beatrice,
Yes, you should definitely end it with this guy, and fast.
It’s a little concerning to me that he is calling you his girlfriend before asking you to be that. Seems like kind of a red flag to sleep with someone once and call it a relationship without any acknowledgement of that from the other person. That would give me the willies.
He may be a nice guy but as you said, you’re not physically attracted. I have tried several times to like a guy who I wasn’t into that way and it NEVER works. It tends to make me feel more awful the longer I stay in the situation.
I agree — you don’t need bells and whistles but you do need to find him physically and sexually attractive. There is nothing wrong with that, just the truth. I’m not looking for my own personal Johnny Depp (though I wouldn’t mind lol) but if I don’t want to kiss someone I’m dating, it’s not going to pan out.
I won’t be chasing that chemical intoxication feeling again as that’s a sign of imminent disaster. But attraction is necessary.
End it with this guy pronto to spare his feelings and also spare your own feelings of self-loathing.
I think its normal to want to be attracted to your partner def. Thats a good think, sexual chemistry is awesome.
But before you end it i would spend some time trying to really get under neath why you feel you are not attracted to him. What is he not triggering in you? Is it just physical attraction that is not there? Or is he is just too ‘normal ala boring’? Or do you just not fancy him? Which is fine – but worth making sure before you end it.
Unless you just don’t want him in which case its better to end it sooner rather than later.
Im not making any judgements – just think its worth exploring further in the vein of self discovery. Like you said, this has happened before so there may well be a lesson life wants you to pay attention too :)
Hi Red,
Good points also. Thanks.
Nope, although he seems to be a very genuine, together, ‘normal’ (and therefore what I would have considered ‘boring’ in the past) I actually like all that about him. I really do. Perhaps it’s because he works in the same field as me, so we have that connection. We talk and talk and talk for hours. He is also a friend of a friend and I am told he is a super person and 100% genuine.
Let me put it this way, I wish I were attracted to him! I really like him as a person, and he is a really great ‘catch’ in lots of ways. But, yes, to use your words Red, I just don’t fancy him. And when we did get a little bit physical, there was v little happening, despite me being well away from all that for, wow, 7 months now! (Can you become a born-again virgin I wonder?! Lol)
I am veering towards staying in contact with him for now and going towards this event he’s invited me to – which is in a couple of weeks, as it’s a big deal for him and I think it would be very awkward now for him if i didn’t show up after he’s told people, including the organisers so my name is already on all the paperwork. Had no idea it would all be so involved. Anyway. Afterwards perhaps I could tell him it’s just not happening for me. Maybe the time together then would also give me one final opportunity to be sure I am not into him for the right reasons. Confused, confused, confused.
Sorry, i feel like I’m making such a fuss over nothing really!
“It’s a big deal for him”
“Afterwards perhaps I could tell him it’s just not happening for me.”
Think about how you would feel if someone you really liked did that to you. Came to an event that meant a lot to you, sat in the audience smiling, you’re walking on air that he’s there, then after he lets you know that he doesn’t want to see you anymore.
Major ouch.
My advice is to end things sooner than later. The event is in a few weeks — you will hurt him more with each passing day, let alone weeks. Better to be honest now than dishonest for a while and then honest later when it will sting that much more.
MovingOn, Yes.
Thanks for putting it like that. You are totally right. I will do it in the next day or two. I just wish i could do it face to face, but he’s too far away. Phone or email is horrible. He is a great guy, he deserves the truth and asap. I’ll get on the case.
Will let you all know how it goes :-(
I agree that the physical attraction is important and not everyone feels the same things or has the same criteria. But I once dated a guy who I felt no attraction to in the beginning. Yet we had such an amazing emotional connection (talked for hours and had so much in common etc) that I just couldn’t let go. Let’s just say that he grew on me after a while. All of a sudden one day it was like someone hit me over the head…I saw him across the room and thought he was SO handsome. And then it just clicked for me. But I realize that not everyone could do this. If you know that you just can’t do a relationship with him it sounds like he would be an awesome friend. Some people are just never meant to be more than friends. I hope it goes well whatever you decide to do. Good luck!
Hi MovingOn,
Thanks for your thoughts.
Yes, a little over the top too I thought, and we didn’t sleep together!
I think it’s been confusing cause after the first time we met and were out, we spent a week calling, emailing and texting and really got to know each other that way, so it feels like we have been seeing each other way more than we have. It’s not been made easier by the fact we live far apart so seeing each other involves serious planning etc. All I initially agreed to was a date, but it has spiralled. I take responsibility for my part in that because I have been conscious that I certainly haven’t made great choices in the past, so wondered if this was me avoiding a nice guy for not a good enough reason.
In fairness to him, he did actually ask me to be his girlfriend yesterday. He actually said those words too. Before that he just told me he’d mentioned to his family and friends he was seeing someone special. When he asked me that yesterday, I was put on the spot. I really wanted more time to think and consider. So, I think i said something like ’sure, let’s go out again’ etc and kind of avoided it that way. Then later on, when he brought it up again, i said ‘let’s go slow’. I am also a bit confused, because I really, really like him. I can’t remember the last time a person – male or female – was so interesting, so funny, and who so totally gets me as a person. And he’s sooo sweet and thoughtful. I guess, as Susan says though,you get what you settle for, and while I want all of that I also want the physical connection.
Thanks.
Beatrice,
Oh ok, that makes more sense (in regards to the “girlfriend” thing).
I think it’s important that you own your part in how this played out. If you dragged your feet and led him on, etc, then you can learn a lesson from that (do unto others, yada yada). Everyone makes mistakes when dating but the key is learning from them and moving forward. The sooner you end things, the kinder you will be.
Like what you can take away from this is “if I’m not physically attracted and I know deep down I won’t ever be, don’t go past date 1.” That sort of thing.
It sounds like you REALLY him as a person, find him interesting, etc, but there’s no draw for you on that level. And considering you spent 7 years with someone before and felt that lacking the whole time and then sought it elsewhere, I definitely don’t think you should settle for no connection. Then it will be like history repeating itself.
I agree with hintofred that you should explore why exactly you’re not attracted (if it is because he’s too normal, not crazy enough, etc) but I get the vibe from what you’re saying that it’s more basic than that. Still worth examining to be sure.
I’m like you — I need that connection. I remember kissing guys before and actually doing a kind of countdown in my head as to when I could pull away without being rude. I refuse to ever go there again.
Moving On,
Yes, I admit, there may have been a little leading on on my part. If I’m honest, I think I have liked the attention, the distraction, the flattery. But also, the first time we met was at an event and we only met just before the end and to be honest my memory is quite hazy cause although I remember that we got on like a house on fire, it was a v late night and there had been lots to drink. …So I couldn’t fully remember the attraction level etc you know? So, when he called and asked me out, I thought what harm is a date to see if we like each other? But because he lives far away, it took 10 days or so before he came to visit and we really got to know each other a lot in the meantime by phone and email, so it felt like we had lots of dates, but without seeing one another. It took until this weekend gone for me to realise … no ….
Thanks you guys. Think have to end it alright, just not sure whether to do it now or in 2 weeks when i see him.
Good luck Beatrice!
well with me I admit to messing up…in the beginning we all seem ”great” to one another don’t we? read somewhere about how important it is to be on the same page about many unspoken beliefs, values and expectations we all carry around with us unconsciously about relationships.
…in the end (2 years together…she was a single mom with a 18 year old kid she coddled too much IMO) I also messed up in not following through with the calls as I said I would (so i’m sure my ex felt rejected)…but her daughter (18) could be verbally abusive to her mom (‘f you!’ or ‘kiss my ass’ when I was there at times…or at xmas dinner table in front of 8 people she tore down her mom as one ‘who can’t cook at all!’…or how for mother’s day when I asked what she was going to buy her mom she retorted in a rude ‘no way…!’ (i was shocked)…
in the end I hated the kid’s behaviours despite trying to earn her trust in the beginning…but she was often cynical and sullen (i guess many teens are like this anyway once i think back to my own behaviours)…i mean she had a ‘no show’ dad so am sure she mistrusted guys…plus with me taking away time from her mom she only grew to dislike me more (ie when her mom and I went on trips every 3-6 months for anywhere from 3-7 days)…
i tried to be respectful of her space…i never once slept over at my exe’s place in our 2 years together (nor pressured ‘L’ to sleep at mine)….what can I say?…in retrospect given this was the first time with a single mom, I wish I would have opened up my heart more and been with the kid ALONE to build trust and listen to her heart and help her out…but i didn’t …in the end I just didn’t want to have anything to do with her at all…so much for me being an understanding guy….I feel like I let them all down…even sent the kid an xmas gift stating such (why not be honest) and a nice book from oprah on ‘the things i know for sure’ (you know the inspirational stuff we can all use).
I found ‘in the end’ I was snapping at them both because for so long I was carrying around alot of anger at their lack of respect for one another and esp my exe’s lack of boundaries in keeping her daughters’ BS in place…i’m sure passive aggressiveness is common (since ‘being nice’ and not honest and angry is preferred)…plus my ex was raised in a scottish household and expressing emotions/resolving issues wasn’t a well taught thing (back to role models, too, I guess).
susan have you ever done any articles on the difficulties of kids in relationships?…some guys i know (and i’m sure women, too) see it as baggage to be avoided at all costs…but i’m in my 40s so am sure to see only more once I wish to get back on the horse again.
“Sometimes you are healthy and functioning at a certain level and then you get into some relationship that slowly erodes your health and happiness. Be it with a passive aggressive crazy person or a smooth talking narcissist, one day you wake up and find that the person you wanted to be and used to be has left the building.”
That really rings true for me. One of my friends told me that I “disappear” when I’m in relationships. Says that she’ll have conversations with me and the person I used to be is no longer there. I think it’s the denial coming from me, I shut-down.
I go out with people who are probably narcissists or have BPD. None of them diagnosed, but pretty sure they were, one of them would happily lie about possibly having brain tumours to manipulate me and another would lie constantly and I’d doubt my reality. But I stayed with them.
For me, I’m pretty sure that it’s from having a father who was a narcissist, I found out he died in grim circumstances and I’m constantly trying to win that battle/and am scared of intimacy.
So I’ll go out with ill people, basically ignore their craziness (up to a point) as I don’t really want to get close to them, so I’ll avoid talking too much to them about “us” as I know it’ll get me nowhere but I don’t want to lose them (despite not really loving some of them).
Then each time they threaten to leave my co-dependency and my craziness kicks-in. I’ll alternate between shouting/sending aggressive text messages, then begging them to meet me (which generally they’ll refuse to keep me hooked-in).
I kind of know now why I do it, it’s to try and “make everything okay”, to make the childhood I had better. And not be “left again”. But I do know now it’s one battle I’m not going to win, I need to stop trying to control it.
And work on my self-esteem, because I always think that a healthy person would not want to be with “someone like me”.
Ask and answer those questions honestly and life changes. I didn’t realise this till the last few years … now I am astonished and how different my life is. If you change your reactions and set limits on who can be in your life and who is just not worth your breath … the whole thing transforms almost immediately. There is fallout (or “flack” as Melody Beattie puts it I noticed) from people who are horrified that we have stepped out of the dance, or the game, or whatever the crazy thing is that they are playing. But the GOOD thing is that usually they are such crazy control freaks that it only takes standing up to the madness and calling them on it, or speaking VERY plainly – and they are so put out and horrified by our independence that they back off quickly, eager to find someone else to play. A new victim.
My mother and my sister are both surprised beyond words at my reactions to the craziness they create around them. I cut them off on the phone and say I have heard it before, I am busy or I’ll get back to them another time. Stunned silence. I mentioned to my father that both of them are emotionally manipulative in different ways, and that beyond a certain point i just would never understand them. He looked stunned, confused and like he switched out of his general despair for a couple of seconds. He murmured something about “me too” then kind of switched back into the trance that he now uses to get through the days. A lot of people don’t want to change because the reality of it is just too horrifying. But I said it for both of us.
Lots of what Susan says here, and lots of Melody Beattie reading, made me realise that the only way out is to completely give up on the idea of an honest conversation with either of them. It’s all about shame, guilt and shifting blame and justifying craziness. I can’t fix them and I don’t have to like them, but I can concentrate on doing what I love to do, occasionally say hi but keep it to a minimum and not ask them to give what they can’t, or be what they aren’t. Buying into their craziness would be a recipe for wasting a life, like getting a crazy partner to avoid looking at the real problem. They create the craziness to keep the whirlwind going – and cover up the reality of the situation. I can’t deal with it and I don’t have to – but I can find a compromise that involves some keeping in touch and LOTS of time between visits or chats. I value my peace of mind much more now! And I protect my interests and my privacy.
I got into dumb relationships with morons because I was so used to denying what was really happening, who they really were, I just looked at the couple of nice things about them and ignored all the red flags. And there were many! My two long-term exes were addicts, first one died of an overdose. I found the drama, and numbed out the same way I did in my childhood. Now I spend a lot of time just feeling what I really feel, and writing and dreaming about the future. The best thing about my past is that it’s OVER! How cool is that. And my life is more and more just about joy and laughs and close friends and health and inspiration and music and dance. It’s true and real. Nothing to hide. And when it feels bad I look at it and fix it. Very different way to live my life – and I now have a very different life! If nothing changes, nothing changes. So I finally changed pretty much EVERYTHING – and my whole life has been transformed. There’s no dark weird guilt or shame in the back of my mind now, no feeling of some hidden sadness or disappointment. The best thing about my life is that I survived! And it can be as peaceful and cosy and I want it to be. And I just keep practising those skills of honesty and being willing to change the way I act and what I expect of people. Standards exist where there were none before! Susan you rock.
People respect me and know I don’t put up with anything now. For years I looked back at my (in reality very shoddy) relationship and thought it was the best thing in my life and my dreams were shattered. Now I see that my dreams were pretty limited and scared. I couldn’t even IMAGINE a partner who adored and respected me. Now I wouldn’t settle for anything less, and guys who are real and solid and honest make it clear they are a bit interested. Who knew. Change everything – and everthing changes.
TangoLola
Yay Lola!! You sound fantastic!!
WOW…this one struck such a chord with me…like it flipped a switch in my brain.
Susan wrote – “Sometimes our own insecurities and holes lead us to be the rescuer, the strong one…the one to be needed. If we are the one who is needed, perhaps they will never leave. But they do…and then the unlucky loser who is SO beneath us walks out on us and there is no worse blow to the self-esteem. Wait. You’re walking out on me? Are you kidding me?”
I asked the question the other day about why I am attracted to alcoholics when I no one in my childhood had a drinking problem and I don’t drink…well there it is loud and clear. Just ties into all my abandonment issues.
Thank you!
:-(
I did it. I was honest, said that I thought he was the most amazing guy but that I was feeling it more as a great, great friendship but not a romantic/relationship thing. Absolute nightmare. He was stunned. A bit angry. Asked a ton of questions for which I had no answers. Said I was making a mistake. Absolutely mortifying. I feel sick. Awful, awful, awful :-( Hope I’m not making a mistake. He’s an amazing guy. But I just was not physically attracted to him. At all. I’ve been here before and don’t want to end up in the same situation I did last time – hurting us both. He’s such a sensitive guy and has been through some tough times the last few years. I feel like the world’s worst cow and a bananahead. :-(
beatrice11,
Follow your gut and your heart. I commend you for your honesty. We need more people like you in this world. You did nothing wrong. You both will understand one day when you both meet your “match.” Exhale and know you did the right thing…good karma is on your side.
Thank you Greek80. Yeah, feels like the right thing to do. When you’ve had a ‘broken chooser’, as Susan calls it, though for so long, it’s hard not to second guess yourself. I do worry sometimes that maybe what I want just doesn’t exist – the physical, intellectual, emotional connections all together in one great person who loves you and whom you love. I have decided not to settle for less, as I’ve had all the different permutations without the whole. I’m just a tad concerned the whole may not exist. But, yes, i won’t accept less.
Thank you for your reassurance.
beatrice11,
You prob won’t have it “all” but, heck, I don’t think that exists. When you meet YOUR “Michael” you WILL know it. Trust your gut and heart. Before my ex, I dated an amazing guy who was PERFECT for the most part BUT we were missing the passion. I don’t regret ending that relationship no matter how amazing he is. You will meet him when the time is right. :-)
You are MOST welcome