Red Flag Redux
May 15, 2008 by susangpyp
Paging GPYP tour guide. :)
Becoming healthy means taking care and taking care of yourself. Even when we are steadily becoming more healthy, we still might attract or somehow wind up on a date or in a budding relationship with trouble. There might be a part of us that is unhealthy and is running the show when we feel down, lethargic and not particular in tune with ourselves or our new-found wisdom. A few “weak moments” can come along and give our unhealthy side an opportunity to wreak havoc in our lives.
A few months before I met my husband I did two things in one week that I had never done before. First, I got up in the middle of a date and left, and second, I stood someone up for a first date. Both times I felt this gut feeling that something was not right here. While I believe that water seeks its own level and you attract the people who are the same emotional health, there is a part of everyone that is raw and untested and unhealthy because there is more work to be done (there’s always more). There are also primal parts that want to operate on a biological level. Keeping the untested and primal in check is a chore when you’re not feeling particularly strong or confident.
I wasn’t particularly vigilant when these two situations came along and there was a part of me, an unhealthy part of me, that was running the show. I was emotionally tired and not choosing wisely. I had developed an “Oh whatever” mentality. I was, overall, fine with being alone. I had a nice life and I was happy there but I dabbled in dating sometimes and did so with a fairly pessimistic attitude and thought, sometimes, that being “casual” or just physical would work for me (it doesn’t, it was a mind game I was playing with myself). I’m actually surprised it did not get me into more trouble than it did. I was playing with fire and I knew it.
So the lazy and unhealthy part of me sometimes made dates and somewhere in the middle of it, the healthy person would show up and bells would go off…ding, ding, ding….and the healthy person would think, “not so much.”
I had spent almost 10 years battling insecurity and abandonment issues and my tendency to run away from intimacy. It took a long time to realize that sometimes running away was a good thing.
In the Defense Mechanisms post we talk about balancing defense mechanisms and not just tossing them out. They are there to help us and save us…and they don’t need to be discarded completely but need to be toned down because they are overdeveloped.
It takes a while to trust ourselves and sometimes we over analyze a situation. Well how can I be with Mr. Wrong when I’ve done all this work and water seeks its own level? Well, you can be and the thing to do is to get out while the getting is good (early on).
I spent a weekend in New York with a guy who drove me to distraction and I realized that I could not do this. And I would not do this. And this guy was manipulative and tried to induce guilt in me. I was outraged by the end. But it was my own stupidity that got me there in the first place. I had ignored the uber-conservatism in our phone conversations. I have lots of friends who are ultra conservative and we get along because we don’t argue with each other. I was trying to have a good time and not get in too deep, certainly not to the political affiliation level, but this guy just wanted to bait me the entire time, and I knew it wasn’t going to work. But I kept ignoring it. I thought I could suppress my thoughts and feelings and just convince him to have a good, superficial, time.
Finally he pushed one too many buttons and I blew up in the Oak Room of the Plaza Hotel, raising my voice high enough so that all the well-heeled and well-mannered diners could hear me rip him a new one. And then I threw down my napkin, pushed out my chair, almost knocking over a waiter with a tray full of food and storming out with everyone in the Oak Room staring at me. Once outside I indignantly hailed a taxi who seemed to stop because he was afraid not to. The whole time I was thinking it should be in a movie (actually that whole weekend should be in a movie).
But about a year or so earlier I had been on a date with a guy that I was friends with and he had left me sitting there by myself for about 20 minutes so he could go talk to someone he knew when he should have been with me or asked me to come with him or not spent 20 minutes while I sat alone at the table feeling foolish. I was hurt and angry and upset and felt abandoned and we argued about it but I stayed another 7 months. Guess what? We broke up when I felt too hurt and angry and upset and abandoned to continue. Doh. I could have avoided a lot of hurt and upset if I had just bitten the bullet and left when he did something so egregious such as bringing me somewhere and then ignoring me. But I ignored that. Bad move. And I paid for it.
What was the difference between 7 hours and 7 months? Well one of the things was that I actively ignored what the second guy did. I not only ignored it but KNEW I was ignoring it and having a fight with myself about it. It was really unacceptable to do what he did but I gave him a pass. I had known him a long time as friends and we were practically best friends and our relationship was kinda new. His behavior didn’t comport with what I wanted for us. Going into the relationship was a hard decision. I was just getting out of a relationship. I wasn’t sure what I wanted but I knew I didn’t want to lose him. I was ambivalent. I wanted to be better than I was. I wanted to ride off into the sunset with him even though I had swirling issues and he had swirling issues. He was an adoptee, like me, but had not dealt with it at all. I thought we could cure each other’s abandonment issues somehow and we managed to just make it worse. The whole outcome was inevitable but I was in complete denial in the beginning.
I wanted what I wanted when I wanted it. And when that self-will run riot is running the show, it will never end well. Sometimes I should paint a sign on every wall in my house that says, “Slam head here. Repeat as necesssary.”
In that relationship I was compromising myself and I was confused. And my confusion played perfectly with his confusion and we played the confusion game for the next 7 months. It was a nice distraction from my grief over the previous relationship. When this one ended I had to grieve both as I knew I would, but I tried to circumvent that inevitability by playing footsie with Mr. Confusion for 7 months.
I wasn’t ready to blow it up over one offense and I got locked into some struggle with him that I was totally into even though it made me nuts. I had crap upon crap going on in my life with the ending of the other relationship and I liked the distraction. I made a choice to stay after a blatant violation of my standards and ultimately paid the price. It was a long walk out of the woods on that one. But I was CHOOSING the drama with him over cleaning up the rest of my life.
What changed after that was that I made a commitment to myself to stay vigilant and leave at the first sign of trouble no matter who the guy was. A few months later I was seeing a guy who left messages on my answering machine when I wasn’t picking up the phone telling me he felt abandoned. We had just started dating but had talked about abandonment and insecurity and, here he was, using *my* issue to guilt me into being more available. NEXT. I really liked that guy, he was very good looking and very funny (funny always reels me in) and easy to talk to but the messages he left when he couldn’t get in touch with me had control written all over them. It was hard to do but I had to end it early and not wait for the drama that was sure to ensue. It felt ODD and UNNATURAL to end it at that point but it was red flag and I needed to be honest about that.
Sometime around the same time frame, I went out on a date with a guy and all through dinner I got this horrible feeling that there was something uber creepy about this guy. I couldn’t put my finger on it but something in me was screaming to run away. And half way through dinner I said I didn’t feel well and that I needed to go home and though he protested and got upset, I got up and left. The restaurant was packed and he wasn’t able to follow me once I started sprinting for the door. Scary!
A few weeks later I was scheduled for a first date with a guy and he called me and I didn’t like the wha wha in his voice and thought this is another head case that I’m going to have to take care of….NEXT. Canceled the date. All I could think of was: “What am I DOING???” Where is all my health? My recovery? My knowingness? WHERE? I had to go back and read Women Who Run With Wolves. I had to hunker down. I had to journal. I had to get right with myself and pull my recovery BACK to me. Dating can trigger all kinds of things and it was triggering it here. I felt a little crazy a lot of the time. I had to slow down the inevitable train wreck and get right with myself.
By journaling and looking at my “stuff” I was able to see that I had to get right with me and do some more work. I had to keep working on making my life a nice place to be and not be bored by it all. I know that I was dating “anyone” when I was bored and my lack of selectivity was dancing all over the place. The unhealthy “whatever” side of me would make the date and the healthy “WTF???” side of me would have to show up and deal with it. As hard as it was, I stopped the whatever side from making dates.
My best friend was involved in a new relationship and had disappeared from my life (I’ve talked about that on here) and I was really upset about her new unavailability especially when I was trying to get over a relationship (or two). The grief over that and over my previous 2 breakups (Mr. Confusion and Mr. Co Property Owner) seemed more than I could bear. Dating, I had to admit, was not really about finding a new relationship, it was about distracting myself from the mountain of grief I was trying to plow through that seemed daunting and overwhelming. And THAT is why there were so many undesirables in the bunch. It wasn’t that I hadn’t done work, but at this particular time, I was very vulnerable and making bad decisions. In short, I was a MESS. I was recycling in a lot of my “stuff” and I was feeling not so healthy a lot of the time. I had to go back to basics and do the stuff that needed to be done.
I had worked long and hard but sometimes you recycle and you’re an emotional mess before you realize what is happening and that’s what was happening to/for me. But all the work I had done and all the recovery I had was not wasted. I had to stop and think and call upon it. I had to stop rolling around in the mud with crazy people and I had to leave at the first sign of trouble.
I had to get honest with me about me and commit to the idea that no matter how cute or funny or beguiling someone is, I have to leave at the first sign of trouble.
I had to go back and look at my relationships…ALL OF THEM…and look at the times I DIDN’T LEAVE at the first sign of trouble. My best friend had gotten enmeshed in another relationship (short-lived) relatively quickly…and though she came to her senses, it was what she DID. Dammit. I had to see that…this was her. And she didn’t get it the first time and she didn’t get it now. I had given her much too much credit for far too long. Dammit.
I had to stop being surprised by the same old thing. I Had To Get HONEST with myself about all the many red flags I had ignored in ALL my relationships and then commit to not ignoring them in the future.
I seemed to go through dates and budding relationships fast and furious after that. But this was all good because when I met my husband I had some questions to ask based on my dating and budding relationship red flags and I was like an Army sargeant grilling him when we met. “Okay this is the situation…” and then I would describe a situation that led to me seeing a red flag and ask him what he would do. I figured he might balk at the grilling but he thought the quiz was funny…he had a good time with it. I was thinking, “I LIKE this guy.” and all his answers were perfect. I kept looking for red flags and there weren’t any. Hmmmm…..it was odd but I liked it.
Looking for red flags is not the same as bolting from intimacy. A red flag is something that you either feel in your gut or has the markings of something very troubling that is a core issue. I knew that when I felt abandoned by Mr. Confusion that it was trouble. It was a core issue issue. And I should have packed it in there. He was careless with me and my feelings and that carelessness was evident that day and would remain evident throughout.
I knew with my uber conservative, long before I made a scene in the Oak Room, that I didn’t even LIKE him…but I was going along because I was emotionally exhausted.
Journaling, doing your work and being honest with you about you and what is going on around you, will keep you in touch with the red flags. The question is: can you leave when you see one? Why or why not?
What is your history telling you? When have you stayed when you knew you should have left? Getting in touch with that is key to not having it happen again.
What warning signs did YOU ignore? How can you not ignore them in the future?
What work do you need to do to keep yourself safe and your eyes open?
Susan,
OH MY GOSH. I could have a whole BLOG entitled, ‘Staying When I Should Have Jet-Packed Out of There!’
It could be the foundation for the next 10 seasons of some cheap and ugly soap opera.
I look back now and I should have bolted when my Ex-husband proposed 1 month after we met. RED FLAG. And not because of the timeframe, but because it was BAD, very bad…and he was NOT AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER in his marriage before ours. He bad-mouthed his 1st ex-wife and I should have had my running shoes on…Oh my goodness. A WHOLE BLOG dedicated to it…the alcoholic boyfriend that made wicked promises and did exactly the opposite…the heavy beer drink who said it was just a “hobby” [WTF???] and who beat his dog because it got scared of thunder and it chewed a newspaper?!?! I mean a newspaper, C’MON.
I could go on. I’ll save you the details. DRAMA. I loved it - once upon a time. Now I LOATHE it.
And here, in this room, we have the historic red flag and its importance illustrated for all to see.
As you may know, the Romans hung pieces of red cloth from a vexillum carried by a calvary officer to signal that a battle was about to begin.
Even more telling is the modern Red Flag, the combat training squadron of the USAF. The purpose of the squadron is to train its members to be prepared to fight and to survive to the maximum extent.
The origins of USAF Red Flag was the poor performance of U.S. Air Force pilots in the Vietnam War compared to prior wars. Too many aircraft were shot down. This was unacceptable crashing and burning.
What were some of the factors causing this loss? USAF pilots just did not have the basics for air maneuvering down for these kinds of battles. They didn’t have the experience fighting against others who were in aircraft so different from what they were in. They just were not prepared or aware.
Information from Project Red Baron II suggested that a pilot would be more likely to survive if he had already successfully been in 10 combat missions.
So what is Red Flag? It is ten simulated combat missions. The Red Flag Measurement and Debriefing System (RFMDS) gives participants real-time monitoring, and post-mission information.
Now, if you’re finished here, I’d like you to step this way over to the garden…notice the arched bridge…
Well done. :)
Serenity, is the tour going to continue since I seem to be lost on the last reference?
Ma’am. Just look up please.
This is a little off-topic, but anyway. I am astounded that women have met so many eligible males, period. I’m curious, all you daters - where/how have you met possible dates? Is this abundance something that just happens in your 20s and 30s? Are you great looking or highly personable or extra flirty or something? Do you live in areas with large single, educated populations? Did you meet dates mostly while you were in school? The last time I went on a date was 1981, and I wound up being married to the disordered nut for 25 years. This matter of “choosing” whom to date is puzzling to me. In my recollection I don’t think I could call ever have called it “choosing” on my part. It was a matter of seeing if any guy was remotely interested. The only choice then is either the only interested guy, or no one at all.
I live in a smaller, kind of economically depressed area, and I am older now, but I’ve tried engaging in my personal interests, taking classes, etc. etc. and every place is overrunning with other women or married people. All my friends are married to their original spouses, so they have no experience with this. I don’t know that I would even want to date yet, but just looking around - it’s a desert out here!
Uncertain:
OUCH.OUCH.OUCH.
I hear what you are saying about it appearing that women (and men for that matter) have met many people while dating…Well, it’s called serial dating for a reason…it just goes on and on and on and SURE, many of us have met quite a bunch of people of the opposite sex - BUT and this is a HUGE BUT…the ones we have met in the past and perhaps in the recent past have NOT BEEN GOOD FOR US. Anybody can meet ANYONE. People who have the symptoms of desperation and unquestioning attachment tend to ATTRACT people who will take advantage of it. I think if you asked around the blog there are probably quite a few people who were not in the slightest bit interested when they first met the EX. But, they grew on them, gave them a job to do (caretaking) and they got together romantically at some point. It happens. And sometimes those people who we get with are not people we would normally entertain dating. It’s just that dysfunction attracts dysfunction. When you are not healthy, the morons flock in numbers. Obviously , you have not had such terrible luck in attracting someone. The fact is, you attracted the WRONG person. And when you get right with yourself - and stop being the caretaker of everyone but YOU, the good ones will come out of the woodwork.
It could be that the area you live in may be demographically disadvantaged in the dating realm, but my advice to you is to GET HEALTHY and watch how the demographics seem to turn in your favour.
I am living proof of such experience. I am going to brag a bit here, so forgive me in advance. I ALWAYS complained that my home state (Delaware) was full of uneducated, moronic men who lived for Nascar and thought it was acceptable to cheat on their wives and kick the dog when they got angry. THAT WAS THEN, THIS IS NOW.
I spent a lot of time alone. I got right with myself. I had a few (not many)offers to date and declined them as I KNEW I had to be whole before I could give back to someone else in a relationship. The truth is, probably the guys that approached me back then were wrong for me and likely had their own stuff to work through because I was still working through my stuff and that’s what I attracted.The longer I was alone, the fewer morons approached me, and the less I felt desperate to ATTACH. Desperation to be married and have children drove my first marriage and consequent divorce. I thought it was because Delaware lacked decent men. The truth was, I was no longer giving off the ‘RESCUE ME’ vibe and men saw that.
Then I met a man in my dog rescue group. We talked, we got along…we dated a few times. He’s a great guy with wonderful credentials. (Susan, you would be proud: He’s an attorney.) We still talk. We could remain friend because it never got completely serious. But, as I involved myself in getting healthy and putting myself in places that allowed me to engage in my interests and meet others, good people followed. Maybe this all sounds like a bunch of bull-puckey, but it is true.
Eventually, I ended up online (through a friend’s coersion) and decided that instead of people contacting me through the service, I was going to contact someone I fancied. I was finally GETTING TO CHOOSE. Apparently, my chooser had been fixed, as Susan says, because I chose and met a man I have been dating for some time now. He’s not a moron, his world does not revolve around Nascar and he is educated with a solid career. Most importantly, he’s SANE, BALANCED and KIND.
It’s all in what you choose and what you attract. Being healthy will open doors you never ever imagined. My life has changed forever because I finally GOT IT.
UncertainJourney,
I think you have hit on something to a certain extent- population demographics. I think there’s a group of men in their twenties and thirties; and then there’s a divorce1 group in their late thirties and forties, and then there’s the fifties-sixties group, and of course the seventies group! I’m not sure which group is bigger- perhaps the first one. But I know there are plenty of men in the later ones too.
Now, in order to meet these people, one has to go to the right places. Some people just have jobs that put them in contact with a lot of people. Others have created social lives that do. Where there are big hobbies like ballroom dancing, wine tasting, outdoor adventure, dog agility training, there are big groups of people single or not. If a person is an introvert or not involved in such big hobbies, it is less likely that she will run into those people. Then, if you are out in the boondocks…well… All I have to say is, what’s the biggest close urban center?
Many people are creating their social life on the online service for groups callled meetup. However, it’s best location is the DC metro area. Other areas, especially those in the countryside, don’t have as many groups.
So, perhaps that kind of answers your question. Some of us are meeting a lot of people when we participate in big social activities. Of course, the direction that Heather went with this is that it doesn’t matter how many people a person meets, if a person does not have a healthy self-esteem, good boundaries, and an awareness of who’s bad for her, she can end up in a miserable situation even though she met a lot of people to choose from.
Heather and Serenity, Thanks for your thoughtful responses.
The caretaking thing is amazingly accurate in my case.
“…. I think if you asked around the blog there are probably quite a few people who were not in the slightest bit interested when they first met the EX. But, they grew on them, gave them a job to do (caretaking) and they got together romantically at some point. It happens…. ” - This is EXACTLY what happened to me. And then I married him and put him through law school. I recently realized I have been a caretaker most of my life; I think women were encouraged to be nurturers and taught that putting oneself first was selfish. It is hard to break a lifetime habit.
(I went to college in Delaware!) I live farther south now, but most of the men here are also definitely the uneducated huntin’ and fishin’ and Nascar types with gun racks in the backs of their pickup trucks. Nothing in common. Heather - You’re not bragging - it is sharing your personal journey. I appreciate hearing how others cope, and will hopefully learn from their stories.
When the kids are on their own, I may have to move. That’s what I’ve been told, anyway. If nothing else, living in the same town as the knucklehead, and working one block away is keeping me looking at what he is doing and with whom, and keeping me ruminating and feeling depressed instead of putting myself first. This is probably going to be a longer process than I hoped, given the length of the relationship and the wifey-mommy theme of my life.
Thanks for spending so much of your time responding to my questions. I have a lot of reading and re-reading to do on this website. Have a nice weekend!
I can’t ever leave.
Every time I feel like I need to and I get up the nerve to go, I panic and go back. BPD kicking in left and right, and it doesn’t matter who it is or what red flags they have. It always feels like /I’m/ the crazy one.
I probably am.
I feel like all the work I’ve done amounts to nothing, or that I’m choosing the wrong people.
Splitting left and right.
I know I need a lot more help than I’m getting, that’s for damned sure.
Uncertain Journey,
Do you have to wait for the kids to be on their own?
Megan,
Recognizing the problem is the first step to the solution! Have you been evaluated to see if there is a biochemical issue helping push you in that direction? Take care of you and get the best help you can. YOU CAN LEAVE. YOU ARE ABLE TO CHANGE THE WAY YOU LIVE IN THE WORLD. YOU CAN DO IT.
Start visualizing yourself there.
FWIW my husband is a GED carrying, NASCAR loving fisherman. We have next to nothing in common. But he’s sweet and kind and loyal and loving. We’ve joked about putting our profiles on eHarmony or something and seeing if they would match us but we know they wouldn’t.
I’m glad I left when my kids were young. It gave me a lot of time to turn me and them into healthy human beings with half a shot at success.
Susan, Eharmony would probably match you. They don’t use “similar activities” as much as they use personality type, family of origin feelings, intelligence, assertiveness, etc.
Actually Susan, that might be fun for a kick, and when people ask you on live TV what you think about that service, if you want you could have a fun story. There is a service they offer for married people. LOL
Maybe I should check it out and get their questionnaire.
Susan,
My guy and I were matched on eharmony. I would not have picked him out for myself on the other dating sites. We were matched based on the extensive personality profile thing on
eharmony, not interests or physical appearance. Not even
educational background, unless you specify. We are about as different as you and your hubby, and for similar reasons. (His being a Nascar fan is only one example!) I’m not saying all eharmony matches are good, but this one sure was. :)
You guys remind me of us so I guess they might have matched us. We are similar in the “BIG” ways but completely different in all the small ways. Our differences definitely work for us most of the time.
Exactly. We’re similar in the big ways, too. It’s a great fit,
but on paper, one would never think so.
I saw all the signs and ignored it. I should have left even before we got closer as friends. I thought his bursts of anger was attractive, that was very stupid of me to have thought so at that time. I will definitely review this topic when I am ready to date again.
::::::Running:::::::
Why, oh why, did I mention NASCAR?!?
I guess it’s because I worked for the bank that sponsored many of their major races… and when I went to some of the races I lost part of my hearing, I think…
Nothing against them…just the noise and it’s not my idea of fun.
My comments were not meant to offend. If they did, I apologize.
There’s a really interesting article on Yahoo! about red flags to look out for, from the perspective of a lawyer who deals with families. It’s called “A Dozen Ways To Get To Know Your Real Partner.”
The more resources on such things, the better!