Personality Disorders–with a special nod to Narcissism
March 16, 2008 by susangpyp
People often ask me what exactly is a personality disorder in the clinical sense. Since I was a diagnostic clinician for 5 years I will try to explain this without being too clinical. But feel free to ask questions if I’m not clear.
We used the DSM IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) to make clinical diagnoses but I think there is another book for Europe and the rest of the world. In the US we used the DSM and we would have to diagnose 5 axes. The evaluation form would ask for it as well as the insurance company so you had to evaluate the 5 axes.
Axis I is clinical disorders, learning disorders, developmental disorders. When I was practicing, there needs to be something on Axis I. Usually when I was evaluating in the ER it was Major Depressive Episode. That was the most common but also schizophrenia, anxiety disorder, panic disorder, bipolar, ADHD. If you really don’t want to saddle someone with a diagnosis or don’t really have one, Adjustment Disorder NOS would be the general diagnosis (NOS stands for not otherwise specified).
Axis II is Personality Disorders. Borderline, Narcisstic, Paranoid, Schizoid, Obsessive Compulsive, Histrionic (I think there are 12-15 personality disorders). In most people this would be N/A.
Axis III is medical if you have a medical condition.
Axis IV is any psycho/social factors affecting the diagnosis
Axis V is global assessment functioning on a scale of 1-100
So Axis I are very common disorders.
Personality Disorders
Axis II is fairly uncommon but characterized by the fact that they are so ingrained in the person and difficult to treat.
However, there are different “clusters” of personality disorders so it’s best to think of them that way. The first cluster is paranoid and schizoid (not the same as schizophrenic which is an Axis I diagnosis).
The second cluster is histrionic, narcissistic, borderline, antisocial.
The third cluster is the OCD and dependent and avoidant personalities.
The one that affects relationships the most is the second cluster. Borderline personalities were the ones that showed up most in my practice and this is characterized by impulse control difficulty, stormy relationships, pushing people away though afraid of being alone, frequent and dramatic mood changes, manipulative behavior
Narcisstic personalities tend to have an inflated sense of self, does not respond well to criticism, criticizes others, manipulates, inability to emphathize with others, attention seeking.
From the DSM:
The clinical criteria is: A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by 5 (or more) of the following:
1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
3. requires excessive admiration
4. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
5. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
6. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
7. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
8. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Personality disorders, especially cluster 2, are very difficult to overcome and make the partner of the person who has them pretty miserable.
NOTE: Approx 75% of those with NPD are male. NPDs make up about 2-15% of the clinical population (people actively seeking services from mental health providers) and about 1% of the general population. Although “narcissistic defense mechansims” might be common (having some of the criteria), having true NPD is much less common.
Axis II Cluster 2 personalities tend to abuse the people they are in relationships with. For the life of me I don’t understand why the DSM doesn’t list abuse of others as a criteria for NPDs. I would bet the house that every narcissist abuses almost everyone in their life.
Partners of Narcissists
I tend to disagree with studies I’ve read that healthy, stable people can find themselves in relationships with narcissists or borderlines. Most healthy people would intuitively RUN from relationships with these people. I can see how someone can “seem” to have it altogether but has unfinished business or some other self-doubt that attracts a narcissist or borderline and the doubt grows and grows as a result of the treatment/abuse by the narcissist.
But the most common partner of a narcissist or borderline is someone who is a perennial victim or martyr. Another common partner of a narcissist is someone who gets their self worth from the narcissist’s self-aggrandizing. In other words the narcissist thinks he or she is something special and the partner wants to be with someone special therefore they will be someone special. (complicated to describe).
Most partners of people with personality disorders are very codependent. I define them as “clinically codependent” (my term) even though there is no codependent term in clinical diagnosis this is my word for someone who needs aggressive intervention.
I find there are those who are everyday codependent, people who can read Codependent No More, go to a few CODA meetings, become very aware of their codep traits and change them.
Clinical codependents need more rigorous intervention. Therapy, tough love, and a complete withdrawal from the person with a personality disorder. If someone has been sucked into a relationship with a person with a personality disorder, especially cluster 2 personality disorder, my recommended first line of treatment is GET AWAY FROM THEM AND STAY AWAY FROM THEM. Otherwise you’re never going to get well.
As discussed on the comments in another thread, I read the book The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists. I do find it dangerous that she suggests therapy with people who have NPD but she seems to waver throughout the book as to whether she wants to address people with TRUE NPD (evaluated as having an Axis II diagnosis) and people who have “narcissistic defense mechanisms.” I was a clinician and trained in the DSM and had trouble keeping straight what she was talking about.
A true NPD is not only going to be immune to couples therapy but I would bet my house that in 99 percent of the cases they use the therapy against their partner and maybe even against the therapists. I’ve seen therapists manipulated by narcissists and borderlines more times than I care to recount.
When I worked in Emergency Psychiatric Services our evaluations always commented on the person’s “insight” meaning their ability to understand their own problems. When a person has an Axis II, esp cluster 2, diagnosis, it was fairly usually to see “lacks insight” on their eval. A person who lacks insight cannot change because they don’t know how to change. My experience with NPDs is they don’t want to change and if they did, they wouldn’t know where to begin.
Borderlines and narcissists, especially narcissists, do not give up their victims easily. They do not respond well to rejection and it is part of the overblown sense of self that causes them to reel someone back in. It has NOTHING TO DO with any “feelings” they have toward their victim because they don’t have any (I don’t care WHAT they say, the feelings are NOT PRESENT.) Borderlines tend to manipulate the people back into their lives with stormy drama. I spent a lot of time in the ER with borderlines who were making a very lighthearted attempt at “suicide” which was mostly a histrionic effort to reel someone in their life back in after the person had announced they had had enough.
NPDs have NO ABILITY TO LOVE and NO ABILITY to EMPHATHIZE and NO ABILITY to be SORRY and NO ABILITY to CARE ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE WRONG TO YOU.
Most narcissists will make you believe it is ALL YOUR FAULT. It is RARELY about them. The world is wrong not them. Most of the time they keep their victim in one place with blame and a constant erosion of any self-worth the victim might muster. Occasionally they will say they love you and they are sorry but as a last resort.
If they say they are sorry or they love you or they care it is merely part of the game. BELIEVE NONE OF IT. Narcissists are PATHOLOGICAL LIARS and will say whatever they have to in order to keep their victim where they want her (or him but most [around 80 percent] narcissists are men).
Getting out is not easy but it really has to be done if you ever hope to have even a semblence of happiness. As I’ve said in other posts about getting way from your abuser, make sure you have a PLAN and you can stay SAFE. Abusers often kill or severely harm the person trying to leave. PLEASE TALK TO A DOMESTIC ABUSE SPECIALIST OR CALL THE 800 NUMBERS HERE: 1 800 799 SAFE which is 1 800 799 7233 .
Also read Staying Safe by the National Domestic Violence Helpline: http://www.ndvh.org/help/planning.html
Borderline Personality Disorder is actually easier to treat. Borderlines are difficult personalities and when they are in a lot of pain can be difficult to be around. But compared to an NPD a BPD is a walk in the park.
When I was a clinician about 75 percent of my population were borderlines and I found most of them to be incredibly likable people. Most were women who had cutting issues which is fairly common among borderlines. They can be very manipulative and when they are in the throes of their rejecting behavior, they can be quite frustrating.
I believe that my adoptive mother was borderline and I adapted some of her push me/pull me personality when I was younger. Through therapy and insight I was able to see it for what it was and stop it but sometimes partners or children of borderlines take on their maladaptive traits.
I get a lot of questions about NPD but not many about BPD. If you want more information about borderlines, let me know.
Stay Safe All!!!
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED ON THIS THREAD. Please continue threads on Personality Disorders II
Thank you for this post. I agree with you about borderline personality disorder. When I worked in behavioral health many of the clients were borderline, but I’d say many of my co-workers were narcissistic. I often felt more grounded with my clients than I did with my co-workers.
I was researching bipolar II for a bit, and one of the things that came out in the material was that many people with borderline personality disorder have undiagnosed bipolar issues, and that treating that helps them actually benefit much more from therapy…There seems to be a lot more coming out recently about bipolar spectrum disorder- it’s not just the old bipolar I type that bipolar is all about.
Seeif: Seriously? That’s disconcerting. Narcissists treating BPDs? Yikes…
True NPD is not that common and if anything I saw way too many codependents with vague boundaries in the mental health field. I saw a lot of people with rescue issues who thought that “tough love” was just horrible. I’m surprised I lasted as long as I did.
How would I recognize myself as an NPD or any other disorder. Sometimes when I read it, I try to pin the diagnosis it on my ex- and sometimes on myself. I am ambitious, I do think I have potential that hasn’t been proven, and all that, but I do empathize with people very quickly….
I know she has issues and I have issues so we’re codependents in some way, either through abandonment and enmeshment issues or through more..but I am trying to work through my past issues to change and it worries me that I have something as harsh as NPD
Self-diagnosis is a dangerous thing as is hearing about a disorder and thinking you might have it.
If you’ve been with an NPD you pretty much know it. It’s pretty unmistakable and undeniable.
I explain the personality disorders mostly to help people who are in relationships with abusive people and to explain this ain’t changing.
I am in the process of divorce after 22 years of marrige to someone who is an alcoholic/NPD. For years, I sensed “something was amiss” but couldn’t identify it.
A year ago, he went into a rehab center for alcoholism and was dx. with NPD. Found out he had been cheating on me with an employee who was pregnant. Also found out that he had numerous affairs and began to recognize his pathological lying, projection and blame game. As I gained clarity, it was devastating to me that I accomodated his behavior for so many years, emotional and verbal abuse. Infidelity is a cruel and extreme form of emotional abuse to the marriage partner who is loyal. I am still really struggling with all of it and the trauma it has caused my children. Sexual immoral behavior and betrayal by a parent is the cruelest to children who depend on their parents marriage and family structure for security. Living with an NPD is true hell. They never can “get outside of themselves” and their distorted perception and exceptional charm, they are masters at manipulating everyone around them. He touts his religon and Christian faith, yet he walked out on myself and 3 children, had an affair with an employee and illegitimate child. Unspeakable. The general public has little knowledge of NPD and friends and family aren’t always understanding of it and it is difficult to talk to anyone. I know that I have to rebuild my life and raise 3 children
to be emotionally resillent and also work on myself so that I never accomodate abusive behavior again. NPD is synomonous with ABUSE. Belive me, I lived it.
I pray that my children will breakfree of this as I am considering about the genetic predliction of personality disorders. Any input appreciated.
This post has really opened my eyes. I have been struggling with getting over my last relationship with someone who I can now say is a narcissist. I can distinctly remember him saying “I don’t say sorry. I just don’t.” He owns his own company and he expects his employees to be exactly on time or he deducts money from their paycheck but he’d oversleep or come and go as he’d want and his excuse was he’s the boss and he can do whatever he wants. He was “given” the company from a friend who moved to another state and you’d think he built it from the ground up for the way he acts. For the last year and a half he’d start and stop a relationship with me always claiming he thought of me and he missed talking to me so he came back. But the reason he stopped was because I brought up issues and problems he didn’t want to deal with so he ignored them and me. When he figured I’d forget about it, I think he came back hoping I’d let it go expecting me to just go on. Now I know why. He doesn’t care what he did wrong. He has NO interest in changing…… He probably can’t. He’s always at work, it’s his number 1 priority, his greatest achievement in life and I tried to become equal to it. Would never happen, would it? And my codepency let him put the blame on me for pushing him and trying to be more important. Why does he still have any importance in my life???
Marty- msn.com offers support in a group called the “web of narcissism”. I think you just click on groups at msn then type the group’s name into search. It’s taken me years to grasp how cunning, baffling, and powerful pathological narcissism is. I’m selective in whom I confide about the experiences, never mind the suspected diagnosis. Most of the support I’ve gotten has been via the internet. People often don’t get it until they’ve been with someone with these behaviors. Also, I’ve stopped trying to convince others of what I experienced with Ns. I know, and you know what it was like and what happened. Most of the time when I talk to people it’s in a general way: about the lies and deception; the double talk. In the end, the label or “diagnosis” doesn’t matter as much as me validating my own perceptions — what it was like for me.
A book called Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman validated my trauma and the difficulty of finding someone who would simply “bear witness”, i.e., listen without judgment, to what happened in these experiences. It’s not about NPD. But it is about the needs of survivors of prolonged abuse or repetitive trauma to be heard, to tell their story,and especially to be believed.
I believe you. And I have experienced that hell of which you speak. It took a long time to recover my sense of what was real. And I needed the suppport of others who had been there and who knew about the manipulation and mind games played by someone with NPD.
Again, I know what I know. I trust what I know. And I do not need to convince ANYONE of my reality.
Marty, from your post, it sounds like you know what you know.
Welcome to the board.
Seeif
Many partners and former partners of NPDs could easily be diagnosed with PTSD. The Judith Herman book is GREAT. A wonderful recommendation. Thanks Seeif!
Hi Susan - Any recommmended reading about Borderlines? Thanks - Anne
Anne,I don’t know what Susan recommends, but Stop Walking On Eggshells by Randi Kreger and Paul Mason talks about splitting behavior (you are the enemy/you are the saint); devaluing/discarding behavior; and the rages of borderlines. It’s supportive of the non borderline child, parent, or partner but it’s also compassionate toward the person with BPD. It was written by the daughter of a woman who has BPD. It’s very practical in that it identifies certain scenarios likely to come up when you’re close to someone with BPD. Randi used to have a blog/website with the same name. It was designed to support people involved with BPDs.
Seeif,
Thank you so much for your encouraging words and reading suggestions. I have visited the msn narcissitic forum and have read alot but haven’t posted there yet. This is my first time to join in on a discussion as I love the blogs that Susan writes and her compassion is evident. I am also selective in discussing my life experiences as, in general, people don’t want to hear “the negatives” and most lay people have such limited knowledge of mental health issues. I find myself with “obsessive thinking” from all of the abusive behaviors and try to practice thought-stopping, etc. The mind games played by an N for that many years is unthinkable. It was like being married to a con artist who presented to the public, a totally different facade. I am trying to focus on the future and esp. on my children. My son shows alot of narcissitic traits and have him with a therapist who also feels he has strong N traits. Therapy has not brought many improvements in his behavior and he is struggling at school. Praying for a future that is both healthy and hopeful for my children. Children of narcissitics suffer tremendously….They are robbed of the innocence of their childhood when the parent is so self-absorbed and unable to appropriately relate to their emotions. Lack of empathy is stunning.
You are right, we know what we know and that is all that matters. Thanks for your kind words
Marty,
Sounds like you’re a really attentive and loving mother. Your son has that going for him. I don’t have children but I am the child of a mother who was married and divorced four times. I can say that to have had a mother, who cares as much as you seem to about your children and the fallout from this, would have meant the world to me.
Also, I will add that knowing that my mother was okay was important to me, too. You said that your children are in therapy but didn’t say whether you were getting help and support for yourself. I was married to someone who had more of the borderline traits than the narcissistic in the Cluster B group of personality disorders. So I was dealing with my husband’s terrifying rages a good part of my marriage. When the marriage ended I was severely depressed for the better part of two years. No one talked about how you can be a battered wife from emotional and verbal abuse, but that’s what I was.
And like Susan said in her reply, many people who have suffered this kind of abuse could be diagnosed with PTSD. I think I probably had PTSD then but didn’t get treated for it. Several years later something happened at work with a supervisor and I ended up getting help then. I really needed it. I had to go back and do the trauma work from years before, the trauma that I’d suffered during my marriage.
I hope you’re getting support for yourself, as well. We deserve that support, we really do.
Take care.
Seeif
Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows how to heal from someone who has an emotional/conflict avoidant personality. Will they ever find the strength to confront their fears and be able to open up to someone?
Hi Seeif - Thanks! I googled around a bit and found that title - so I ordered it from the library! Anne
Thank you for writing this post. It has helped me understand my last relationship. A narcissistic man that could not tell the truth. He lied all the time. ALL the time. He thought he was the hottest thing around and said that he had a lot of self-esteem when I saw he had none. He pushed away but was afraid of being alone. He said he loved me, cared for me, etc …. but didn’t really mean it. He cheated on me several times (I found out after the fact). He brought me down and sucked the life out of me. Looking back he was very manipulative!!! I am more angry with myself now. When I finally ended it, he would not leave me alone. I did feed into it.
I became pregnant ( I was happy and he said he was as well). I miscarried 2 weeks later and I was really upset. The night I asked him to come over as I was miscarrying he said he had a party to go to. I haven’t spoke to him since. I was his back up plan if things did not work out with this other girl. It has taken a while to build my confidence up again and feel me getting stronger everyday. Over 30 day with NC. I am feeling much better now that I have read your article, I always thought that there was something really wrong with him. Some of the things he would say were out of this world!!
I myself am borderline and its refreshing being called a “walk in the park”. My ex actually broke up with me when things were improved.. Its like he was afraid of me being well which hurts even more!
Noelle,
I was reading your blog and thought that I had wrote it myself… including getting pregnant. I am now 5 months pregnant. He is out of my life for now but has said he will be back when the baby is born. I have been to a lawyer for a consultation to understand what procedures I must take to keep this baby safe as well as to know my rights. He was also happy when we got a positive test but only weeks later….in a rage….said he wanted to kick me in the stomach (as well as other verbally abusive slanders). He too cheated on me… with “girls” 20 years younger than me, while I was pregnant. Lying, manipulating, creating stories, blaming, accusing, verbal abuse, physical threats, drug and alcohol abuse, not showing up for days were all part of my relationship with this guy as well.
I am currently doing self work with my therapist to understand “why” I chose such an unhealthy partner….I am beginning to understand it….more than beginning…..the light is coming on! I can’t say enough about “cognitive therapy” with a “good” therapist. Journaling helps too… letting it all out. Sometimes the best “AHA’s” come when you let the pen flow on paper. I am far from where I need to be as far as “healthy” is concerned. My goal is to be “indifferent” toward him when the day comes that he shows back up. I know he will. He is diagnosed bipolar and has all the N characteristics….as well as psychopathic personality disorder traits. He has 20 for 20 of Dr. Robert Hare’s check list. I guess I am writing this back to you Noelle because your story resonated so deeply with me AND the pregnancy. I can’t imagine losing this baby and I am so sorry for the pain that you must have experienced (on your own of course because the “party” was more important) BUT…I do believe that everything happens for a reason and for the best outcome in the long run. The man that deserves to be the father of your child is still waiting for you. And I just wanted to say to you that I believe if you and I both get to “OUR” core issues of why we brought someone so abusive into our lives….then we will prevent that from ever happening in the future. We will go on to have the kind of healthy , emotionally available, loyal relationships that we deserve.
Take care of you and thanks for sharing your story.
I was the infidel on the other side of a BPD woman. She was also married. She pursued me for months, bringing me gifts and just basically being infatuated with me. She would call me every day and stop by to see me at work. Finally, she admitted that she liked me sexually, and by now despite my marriage I liked her too. I liked the way it made me feel to have this young woman, much younger than me, pursue me. I admitted to her after months that I too liked her. Then wow we had the greatest affair. She tried and tried to convince me to leave my wife, but I just couldn’t do it. The affair was found, by her husband, and so it ended. I told my wife about it, and we have somehow been able to continue our marraige. Through all of this, this young lady disclosed to me that her psychologist diagnosed her with BPD, and my psychologist diagnosed her with it to, just by hearing stories of her behavior. Now my ex is having an affair with my coworker. This of course hurts me, because I did have an emotional attatchment to her which I’m having a hard time beating because I am constantly triggered by his presence. Anyway, he is an NPD, his father commited suicide at 7 due to an infedility his mom had with another man (now he’s the other man, his current, and my ex, she is still married) He has had one marriage and one engagement fall apart which he admitted to me that they failed because of the women “not needing him”. So anyway now you have the classic NPD and BPD union. I personally want it to end for them, or for them to move away so I can get on with my healing without my thoughts being triggered back to her from him. I can’t move, it’s the only job in town. So I’m stuck in this situation and I guess all I can do is to somehow take my focus off of it, and focus on myself and my marriage.
That sounds like a Jerry Springer show. Have you gotten into therapy? Because you sound like you need it. One cannot be surrounded by sick people and be a-ok.
Shady Cotton,
I can relate to the scenario of you and your ex. Although my ex was single( as am I), he pursued me, flattered me — and I ate it up. It’s been seven months since our breakup. I’ve gone through a lot of soul searching about why I responded to someone I knew was probably a love addict. (He told me he was “in love” with me 2 weeks after we met.)
Anyhow, the main thing I began to focus on in my recovery was my self-esteem, which I believe was very low when I met my ex. I didn’t realize it. I wasn’t “looking” for a relationship. And I didn’t feel particularly lonely. But…I was in the midst of a very abusive situation at work, which had been going on for some time.
You might try the relationship inventory on this site. Also, don’t know if you’ve read Stop Walking on Eggshells but that’s a good book to read if you’re in — or were in — a relationship with someone with borderline personality disorder.
Also, Facing Codependence by Pia Mellody is a ice-water-in-the-face book about the types of relationships codependents –if you’re one — attract.
Take care.
Seeif
Wow, that’s just it. She was an “in love addict”. I just want for their relationship to fizzle as well so that I won’t have to see him as a trigger to her.
charleenjj
I had some cognitive therapy, that did not help much. Mostly I go to gettinbetter.com and sites like this. I’m also reading various books by Eckhart Tolle-these help. Unfortunately with gas prices and sky high food and taxes their is very little left for self improvement or therapy. Sad I know.
Shady Cotton: I think that the scenes you describe need some more help than gettinbetter.com
Go to 12 step meetings. Codependents Anonymous and SLAA and Co-SLAA are free.
Shady Cotton, if there’s some grief aspect to your issues you could also find a friend and work through the Grief Recovery Handbook
Seeif, you have so informed me in terms of Love Addiction. It’s been really beneficial to know about the other side of the dance. What do you think is the most valuable book you’ve read for this?
Susan, I have a NPD father so of course it subconciously made sense for me to find a partner with the disorder! Of course I played little poor victim, matryer, idiot. As I read through the list of traits I checked them all off for the ex and the partner of a NPD for myself. It doesn’t matter anymore to me but I’m amazed at how all the puzzle pieces fit together now and I’m finally seeing the complete picture! I’ve had absolutely no desire to contact my ex and I’ve been amazed at how my internal thinking has now begun to change. I always wanted to go through the entire process without allowing myself to cave into humilation and run back. This is an amazing journey and one that without your hand (Susan) to walk me through the stormy emotions, would have been much more difficult. I’m doing fantastic and I feel even stronger knowing that I got away from someone with NPD and I’m getting away from being an attractive partner to unhealthy people. My mantra for so many things now is, “It just doesn’t matter.”
My ex is definately an “in love addict” I think her relationship with this NPD will fizzle when the in love feeling starts to fade.
Which begs the question, what is up with you to be involved with a love addict who is now with an NPD. Read this:
http://gettingpastyourpast.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/whos-the-sicker-person-here/
Hi Serenity,
Just read your question about love addiction book. I’d say Facing Love Addiction by Pia Mellody. I read it right after my breakup from this last ex. It’s the book that made me see I was a love addict with an avoidant addict. But when I met my ex, I was more the avoidant addict. I swung both ways with him.
It’s the book that made me run, not walk to CODA. I started a women’s CODA meeting which I was in until it fizzled.( It was an awkward time slot and few people could get to it.) I met with these women all last fall.
Even though the meeting ended, I continued learning what I could about the dynamic of love addiction from a couple of web sites for love addicts.
I personally believe that there are degrees of love addiction — some have it worse than others. But if you have it, YOU HAVE IT. I think there’s been an element of love addiction in virtually every serious relationship I’ve had. But it’s sneaky, because when I haven’t been in a relationship I’ve been okay, i.e., I don’t have obsessive thoughts about men or wanting a relationship. The sneaky part is that when you aren’t in a relationship you think, Oh, it was just the relationship or the person. But it lies dormant. Or at least, I believe it’s lain dormant in me; when I meet someone I want to get close to, it’s activated. It’s kind of like an alcoholic who becomes abstinent from alcohol. If an alcoholic picks up a drink after 10 years of abstinence, he or she will probably experience the same dependence on alcohol she had when she stopped drinking 10 years before.
So, all of this is to say that I have accepted that I have love addiction and that I need to remain vigilant, and continue to do recovery around the love addiction and the codependence that Pia Mellody and Melody Beattie and, perhaps, Susan Anderson recommend. The recovery work that Susan here at gpyp suggests is similar: looking at family of origin wounding, trauma, abandonment, neglect, abuse (including emotional) in our lives.
But the WAKE UP book or D-Bom book, if you will, was Facing Love Addiction (different from Facing Codependence).
Hope you’re doing well.
Take care.
Seeif
My ex was definitely a narcissist, though he didn’t have NPD (he was a diagnosed Major Depressive). Same goes for my dad, which I realized recently.
Gee, what a coincidence. Ugh.
Both of them were crazy about me as long as I was fussing over them constantly. When that stopped, they both withdrew. They both have a wild sense of entitlement and take little to no responsibility for their immoral actions. I don’t think either of them truly knows what “empathy” means. They only get upset if someone is making things hard on them. Everything is about them.
My ex had a lot of good qualities but he had a ton of baggage and mental problems on top of them. No thanks. It should have been a hint to me when early on he took an online personality disorder test and scored “very high” on a few, when I didn’t even know that was an option (mine were all low, with one moderate).
All I know is I am done with narcissists on any level. They will never make anyone happy, because their primary goal is making themselves happy. True love is foreign to them.
Hi Susan,
I’d like to hear more about BPD. My ex-boyfriend appears to have traits and tendencies of both NPD and BPD. It’s helpful for me to understand both so I don’t fall into the traps repeatedly with him. I’m working on myself at the moment and staying out of it and the whole “rescuing” thing.
Looking forward to any information and advice that you can give me.
Emma
Hello All:
My husband has NPD, as did my father. Husband KNOWS he has NPD. I’m back in therapy, poked around on web, learned about NPD and recognized husband and father. When I told my husband what I thought he said he knew, that his therapist from years ago had told him he had NPD. Does anyone ever learn to survive these people. The worst part of us so far, for me, is how much he embarrasses me… just like my father did, when he talks to other people… dropping names and basically bragging. Does anyone out there have any advice other than get out and get out fast?
Linda
Hi Linda,
What kind of advice are you looking for?
Hi seeif:
I don’t know. I guess I am in the panic struck mode. I cannot believe I’ve gotten myself into this situation. I am going to read “Walking on Eggshells”. Everything I read about NPD is very negative, yet these people are human beings… destructive, sure… but, well, I need to learn more. Just when I thought I was safe, I’m not. I read all of this information on the web and I see myself, and my husband, described over and over again. And so, just when I thought I was crazy, I see that I’m not.
Is “Walking on Eggshells” the best book you have read on living with a NPD?
Maybe I should be reading about myself and my love-addiction, and not him and his NPD.
Linda
Linda
Linda: I think it’s good to read about both. When you are love-addicted, you can make excuses for Hannibal Lecther and rationalize why you love him and it’s the right thing. But you also have to understand that Hannibal is not changing and the depth of his sickness.
For me, I had to do both. I had to realize that my ex was a misogynist, self-centered, critical, dumb SOB and then I had to go “Oh WHOA. This is the guy you want? What the heck is wrong with you?” and I read Women Who Love Too Much (the love-addicted woman’s bible), Letters From Women Who Love Too Much (better than the first, I thought), Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them (talk about wanting to vomit out your whole life and start all over!) and Smart Women, Foolish Choices. Those are the Female Love Addict’s book list. I’d also read Codependent No More and Beyond Codependency.
But reading about NPD is about the fact that there is really little these folks will (or can) change and how they just don’t feel like others and so the question is: why the attraction? Why are YOU with him?
Ultimately it comes back to YOU but you need to see what you are attracting and attracted to which helps give you insight to you.
Keep sharing! Stick around.
Hi Susangpyp:
Thank you for your response. I read “Women Who Love Too Much” about 20 years ago… clearly I need a refresher course. My husband isn’t a monster but living with someone with this illness is draining and frustrating. Before I understood what was going on I was so into my rescue thing and of course my desperate need for love that I could not see how disturbed he really is. The family wreckage he has left in his wake… ignored children and grandchildren… this is a sad and destructive way for him to live. And then of course there is me. I support him, clean up after him, listen to him talk about himself and his ideas (fantasies) and endlessly prop up his ego… Why would I want to stay with someone like this? Don’t know, but not ready to leave yet.
Linda
I’m a borderline and I can safely say that I /do/ have the ability to love and to be honest (which I guess sets me aside from an NPD). The problem, I think, is that as a general rule, most Borderlines simply aren’t aware of what they’re doing. My therapist says I have a level of insight she just doesn’t see, but I think we’ve run up against a block.
In /all/ areas of my life except for intimate romantic relationships, I’ve managed to put a stop to most of my borderline behaviour. Having alternate coping methods help very much. The issue, then, becomes, “What the /hell/ am I supposed to do about relationships?”
The problem for me is that I think I’ve handled all this stuff in therapy, and I get involved with someone, and it all goes down the toilet instantly. It’s literally like flicking a switch. I have no idea how to derail that line of thinking. That panic sets in, and I instantly, INSTANTLY, /do/ something. Good or bad, indifferent, it doesn’t matter. If I don’t /do/ something, I feel like I’m suffocating.
I would be very interested in reading more about borderliners in general, especially from you. Like I’ve said before, Sue, you have a down-to-earth way about you, and what you say is understandable to me. If you could grant me any insight from your experience that might help, I would be grateful.
Susan,
Nice to meet you. I’m not really a blogger, so I’m totally lost. Want to do a little research before I pick a (carrier?). However, I came on this a.m. to read the Mother’s Day article, as my Mom is NPD. I’m in Stage II recovery, have myself a therapist, am a therapist and have long-term sobriety behind AA, Alanon & occassionally CODA. Looking into training which will continue my own growth and to share with others. “We teach best what we most need to learn!”
I’m just getting started with really facing where my Mother fits into my recovery. I’m learning she nor I have appropriate boundaries, which for me has opened up a lot of victim/martyr relationships. The good news, or bad, is that my lessons are coming quicker and quicker now. Universe is not allowing me to even speculate with my love addiction, so my “picker” is on strike. All life, my therapist and myself allow me to do is observe my own reactions to inappropriate stimuli through others as well as my own inappropriate responses. At this stage it’s interesting. I’m working hard; reading Pia, Bradshaw, Hendrix, Keyes and one I found through Amazon; Children of the Self Absorbed by Nina W. Brown, Ed.D, L.P.C.. I’m in transition right now, returning “home” to New England from a place where I was raised complete with connection to my mother for the first time in thirty-some-odd years. I’m now learning where and how - I got what I got. What a journey! Thanks for being there and being you.
Karen
Oh yes, and I intuitively left the whole region where my mother is, and only came down (I didn’t now why then), for a couple of years and am leaving to go back to my life. I Ran! But the bad news is it took me longer to get to this recovery piece w/my narcisstic Mom. Happy Mothers Day!
Karen
Hi Linda,
I’m just now reading your response to my question. The book, Stop Walking on Eggshells, is about living and interacting with someone who has more of the traits of borderline personality disorder(BPD) not narcissistic personality disorder(NPD). In my experience, they are often very different. There’s a lot of hope for people with BPD, who get into therapy.
To be honest, other than leaving a relationship with someone who has the behaviors of pathological narcissism, I can’t think of any other advice. Except, learn as much as you can about it. That’s one thing that really helped me. By understanding the maze and haze of living or working with a person who was often indifferent, lacked empathy, who was envious of me for just having feelings, who felt a sense of entitlement ( that he or she could do whatever he/she wanted just because; or who used me for his/her gain, then ignored me) helped me to see how insidious and crazymaking the behavior was. Without reading the descriptions of it, there was no way I could have understood it on my own.
Yes, I needed and need to look at my own issues: my low self-esteem, lack of functional boundaries, looking outside myself for validation. But, reading descriptions of the NPD behavior is ultimately what set me free.
Also, posting on blogs that are specifically designed for people who are in romantic relationships or work with them or are children of them helped me tremendously. Reading others’ stories that were so similar to mine, and seeing these people grow more confident and become more of their own persons, well, that was invaluable. I needed blogs that were tailored to living with NPD. I needed to know I wasn’t crazy. I needed to know that the accusations were just that. I needed to know I wasn’t alone.
And when I was still involved with the NPD boyfriend/coworker/sister, I needed to believe in what someone, besides my NPD person was saying about my reality.
And, eventually, this helped me trust myself, trust what I knew, trust my own perceptions.
As I’ve said elsewhere, living with chronic abuse is synonymous with brainwashing in my book. It’s slow, it’s intermittent, and spiritbreaking. That’s just my thing! And because I believe it’s brainwashing — not unlike the PROCESS, if not the conditions some prisoners-of-war have experienced — I believe it takes time and support , and deprogramming, if you will, to recover from it.
And, if you grew up with it (pathological narcissism), if one of your caregivers had it — and that was true for many of us — then you have even more to sort through.
First, I had to know the crushing force I was dealing with. I was dealing with a reality that was raining meteors into my life and creating huge craters in an already fragile self-esteem. But everyone around me, although well meaning was telling me they were just pebbles, and that everyone had to deal with pebbles. Deep inside, I sensed the damage being done to my soul was not caused by pebbles. But I didn’t have a name for it. No one was validating it for me. And because I was trapped I couldn’t validate myself or my perceptions.
I learned that most people are ignorant about this kind of narcissism, as was I; and many therapists are reluctant to identify people as having pathological narcissism or to say as Susan as said the only protection against a narcissist, ultimately, is to leave, to get away.
Whew! Hope this isn’t too much. But I am very passionate about getting the word out about this stuff: it very nearly killed me. And no one deserves to die because of ignorance.
You sound like you’re on your way, Linda. You will have to make your own decisions. No one can tell you what is right for you.
My best advice: trust your feelings — trust your perceptions. THEY are telling you the truth.
Take care.
It is very painfull to be on the other side of a BPD. My ex wanted to marry me and have a child. Now when I see her in traffic, and look over All I see is complete indifference. One day I was a king, it seemed like I was the only thing that mattered in her life(even more than her kids). The next I was nothing. Less than nothing. Its taken me some time to get over her, NO CONTACT at all after the relationship was over. And that was tough on me, She probably didn’t even feel pain over the no contact. Why should she, cause like I said, it was as if I never existed. Now, the pain cycles on and off, because she has “hooked up” with my co-worker who’s a classic text book definition of Narcissist. Seeing him is almost as bad as seeing her. I’m glad you’re seeking help, and hope you understand what your behavior has the potential to do to your ex’s
Megan,
My last post was to you.
Megan, when I was figuring out things about my ex, I read a lot about Bipolar II, also called soft bipolar, and I read that many BPD people have bipolar spectrum issues, and if they get those treated, therapy works much better. I don’t know how much this is true, but it was an interesting piece of information.
I think that the whole issue of bipolar spectrum has only come up in the last few years and the website I found explained that many psychiatrists are not yet familiar with Bipolar II and bipolar spectrum issues, so how to treat them is no common knowledge (with bipolar conditions, SRTEs poop out).
Seeif, that post really rang a bell with me.. For (nearly) the whole of my relationship I had a knawing feeling that something wasn’t ‘right’ and would write down and tell friends of the ‘incidents’… they started so quickly (a few weeks into our meeting) but I had that feeling of being confused ‘he did what?” Now I know what I know about BPD or generally Personality Disorders I know that the way he was was the way he was.. nothing will change that.
I too felt so traumatised when it ended.. it took me the best part of a year, reading, researching, talking and getting support. Finally I’m free and it feels good not to be reading ‘those’ books again (I have a stack if anyone wants em!! :)
But, I NEEDED that, to understand how someone could systematically destroy a relationship… or rather NOT CARE about destroying it…
I guess it was hard because he had a new gf so quickly and (a year later) they are still together.. I get to wondering, well maybe he DOESNT have it if they are so happy. .BUT, as my friend pointed out. “YOU stayed with him for 3 years!” so maybe she is also in the same frame wondering
“did he really do that?”
N. M. P…. (not my problem!)
thankfully
peace
Abbyx
Seeif, - were you raised by an NPD? It sounds with the boulder/pebbles metaphor, your right on target.
Karen
Abbychaya,
It’s good hearing from you. You sound good. How do you know SHE’s happy?
Yes, it is good to be free. But I do not intend to forget. I relaxed with my last bf and even there were signs from him…I ignored them. I will remember. I like the acronym of FEAR: face everything and recover.
Take care.
Karen,
I believe my mother had characteristics of narcissism. But it was subtle(perhaps what I’d call introverted narcissism). She was a psychiatric social worker who was EXTREMELY good with her patients and the children she “helped”. But at home, she was using her child — me — to listen to her many problems resulting from relationships with the many disturbed men to whom she was married. She was married 4x and her husbands included a PhD. psychologist and a psychiatrist, and my father, a gynocologist(an apparent womanizer). I believe the psychiatrist probably had NPD. He was married 8x and fathered many children, including my younger sister. My father left my mother and my older sister and me when I was 6 months old, and was pretty much out of the picture after that. My father exhibited traits of NPD, from what I can piece together. Interestingly, my mother never spoke ill of him even though she had a “nervous break down” when he left her( a 25yr old with 2 kids under the age of 2) for a nurse he later married.
What the husbands all seemed to have in common was : they were brilliant, “successful” in their careers, and charming. And, guess what kind of men I was attracted to?
Let’s just say I believe pathological narcissism — among other pathologies — was present in my childhood.
Yeah, I’ve had to take a good long look at myself and my family history to get past the sickness in relationships and in myself.
I know I shouldn’t think about this. I should just stop thinking
and worrying about my ex. But I can’t help to worry about her, because she’s getting into a relationship with a guy who is a narcissist. I’ve read alot of posts on how destructive relationships with narcissists can be. Many times it seems women just stay trapped in them due to fear. My ex has only been with him for a couple of months, she could escape her awfull fate now if she ran for the door, but somehow I feel she won’t. I should just say I DON’T CARE , I DON’T CARE, I DON’T CARE. Let her find out for herself.
It’s not your problem. The ex left a great guy behind (you) and has now embraced a not-so-great guy (him). What goes around, comes around.
It sounds like you have more inventory stuff to do in order to shift your focus onto yourself. Her doomed relationship is no longer your concern. Why think about her when she’s not thinking about you?
What things do you want to do? What will make you happy? Try and think about all that instead.
Megan, sorry, I meant SSRIs not SRTEs.
Anyway, if you can find a psychiatrist who knows about Bipolar II, it’s worth checking into. There are also a lot of natural therapies that help lessen the symptoms. I think the connection BPD/bipolar II holds great promise for healing those who are suffering from the first.
Seeif.. thanks yes I’ m doing really well and my past really is in the past… but yes I wont’ forget.. It was one of the things I said to the ex as he finally stamped the life out of us the night we ended
I can forgive you but I won’t forget
I’m with someone now who is so the opposite of ex.. and to be heard, listened to, appreciated and, dare I say it, loved.. for me.. is just a joy.. not to have the daily battle of dancing around or walking on eggshells NOT to upset this person who basically was going to be upset no matter what I did.. Oh yeah and we laugh.. like all the time.. not too much laughter in BPD land…
Freedom..
is a wonderful thing
peace
Abby
Namaste abby!
Dear Susan,
I was amazed as I read this post. I just broke up with my long-time boyfriend a week ago. I recognized a lot of his typical reactions in the lines on NDP. I am not diagnosing him but would like to hear opinions. It ended a week ago and I feel miserable.
He would always blame me for ALL our issues.
He would tell me he needed praises daily and if I was not telling him “you look great” he could not feel I loved him.
He would always tell me and make me feel guilty by expressing I was neglecting him, although I spent all my time outside work with him, cooking, caring for him, watching a movie together, talking walking with him etc. I gradually lost contact with my friends and family.
He would not listen to me when we had an argument (he did but I could see nothing ever touched him). He would just tell me the same things everytime: I am angry I should not be, I could not be loved, Nobody loved me, He hated me, I was unbearable, I was just starting fights all the time, He would never argue, I am making things up and It is all in my head, I am crazy, I need to see a shrink, Our issues are only because of my psychological problems (he was desperate finding something in me, all fights ending in him blaming me and finding the cause in me).
I would never tell him the things he would throw at me. I was usually trying to get an issue resolved, by compromise or mututal understaing… he would just make me frustrated by not responding, and just saying “don’t raise your voice” “why are you so nervous” “you are crazy, why are you so upset?” etc.
He would NEVER admit any flaws in him, admit any mistakes, or look inside himself. I NEVER had the impression we were both trying to find what we did wrong. It was just me trying to change according to his expectations and him insisting on me to lose myself so he would be happy. He would never ever take responsibility or talk about things he had done wrong. All the weight of the relationship was on me, when it worked he reminded me of this “look, you are ok now, and see, the relationship works! it only depends on you” and when he would label me for unknown reasons with something that was untrue and unnecessary, I would reject the label and he would say I was quarelling alone, he is calm and peaceful, and I was always just putting up fights.
We once went to a group during a difficult time when he was every day saying I was this and that and we were in a crisis. In the group, after a heavy week full of fights, drama and crying, I was in an emotional mess and cried and did not give a good impression. I started arguing with him when he made assertions about me that i did not agree with. I was amazed to hear his description of himself “I am putting all my efforts into this relationships” “I am a very sensitive, deeply emotional person despite the looks”, etc.
He on the other hand was charismatic, calm, cool, nice, positive, and acted completely different from the way he did at home. All this in a moment when we were practically splitting up and had been quarrelling for weeks.
He would convince people in the group that he was OK while I was not OK. He would even make judgements about me in front of everyone ‘i can’t accept myself’ which sound good but were untrue. When I denied them everyone thought “he’s wise and she’s confused”.
The people there told him to leave me. They said things like poor you, it must be difficult to put up with her.
I loved him more than anyone ever, at least this is how I felt all the time. All my life was about him. All my effort went into this relationship. Now he plays the “I’m so much better without you”, he sometimes contacts me just to make me feel he is GREAT, and this hurts me a lot.
Any advice for my situation? I am quite alone, don’t really have anybody that could be with me.
Thanks very much.
Oh, just a few more details:
He would tell me sometimes he says the opposite to what he means, and I’m to find out what he actually things or feels. So I was to please him by getting no hints or help.
He also seemed to be playing games with me. I often felt he was doing things just to make me react somehow, or to make me feel sad and come back begging him to forgive me, etc.
On several occasions admitted having played games but he never said that was wrong, he instead explained to me he has grown up manipulating his mother to get what he wanted and it is impossible to leave a behaviour pattern so built in his personality.
It is sad how awful all this seems to me when I read it, and still I miss him so much and can’t even get me to go buy some food as there’s nothing to eat or drink in the apartment.
I would really appreciate some help. Thanks again.
Dear Froggy,
It’s time to take care of yourself. Find a therapist. Read Co-Dependent No More. Read and follow the Post Breakup No-No List. You have gotten lucky twice- someone you realize in your brain is really really bad for you is out of your life, and you have found this site.
He is NOT your problem.
His problems are HIS problems.
You can make this event into something really good for you.
Froggy, also see #25 and #37 above.
Good luck and take care.
Froggy,
I know how much it hurts, but it’s very good that you’re starting to see the reality of the situation. Serenity is right. Start taking care of you, one step at a time, and things will slowly begin to change. First thing, go get some groceries. Sounds small, but it’s a good place to start. Take it minute by minute. Keep coming back here to read. There’s a lot of love to be found here, and most importantly, you are not alone. We have all been right where you are and can promise that it will get better. “Don’t give up the day before the miracle happens!”
Sending a hug your way tonight. You can do this! (-;
Serenity, thanks for the replies.
I read the posts you suggested and got your point.
You surprised me.
I have had different relationships and actually I don’t think I’m prone to codependency, although I admit this guy did and said things that to me seemed very strange from the beginning and I was not saying enough and did not leave.
I do think about this one a lot and I was getting very involved here, this has been a long relationship. But I did not realize what was going on and there was nobody to talk to me about it.
So I’ll check what codependency is and will think about it. I am concentrating on myself at the time, I made it clear I will not talk to him or be friends (he has called just 3-4 days after the breakup to talk, I suggest he wanted to get stronger by hearing how i miss him… I did not say anything, remained factual).
I’m meeting friends and talking it over with them , I work, I exercise, meet family… I think I’ll do good, but I also would like to understand what was going on in this.
Froggy.. You were dating my boyfriend, right?
You should read “walking on eggshells” ( can’t remember the author but google it) when I read your post I was transported back to my old relationship where it was all about my issues and the burden of making the relationship work rested on my shoulders. It made me ill froggy, and yes we went to a counsellor and then it became all about my reactions to his bad behaviour and how I should really tone them down! If you read Lundy Bancroft’s book Why Does He Do that? (I really reccomend you do) you will see all of these traits you describe. Only you can make up your mind but I would strongly reccomend staying NC and leaving this one behind. You are right, you DID sense something was wrong right from the start ( I know I did too) but because I wanted to make it work and I LIKED this guy and we had greeattttttttt sex.. I just let it slip.. in the end, the reason we broke up was really the first red flag I saw. This guy had NO EMPATHY.. and I suspect yours doesn’t either.
Hope you are ok
Peace
Abbyx
Serenity. namaste indeed. how you doing?
Abbyx
abbychaya,
“.. in the end, the reason we broke up was really the first red flag I saw.” I could not help but relate to this.. Oh yeah.. In the end the reason we broke up was the first ever thing I noticed in him. He was rigid in his views and was never going to change. We weren’t even together when I saw this.
Froggy,
I don’t think my X had something similar to NPD. But what you said about bearing the weight of relationship resonates with me. Really, it was exactly like you described. “It’s all in your head.” “How come you are the one starting fights?” “Do I expect anything from you, why do you expect from me?” “I won’t change this behavior because THIS behavior is natural to me, if I change, then it will be forced by you”.
Oy… It’s been more than 2.5 months now. Want to know how I feel about all the above stuff? Relieved… gosh, I don’t have to hear his drivel again and make myself crazy… I really made myself crazy by believing in him, you know. I KNEW what he said was not right for me and yet I chose to ignore all the gut feeling. Feel relieved, Froggy, you don’t have to go through that self-torture EVER again.
Mayee - it is really the truth. How someone is, is how they are.. at aged 40 whatever they aren’t going to change.. (in my case)
Froggy.. So much of what was ‘wrong’ in my relationship was not, as I thought, because of what I was doing or not doing. My ex also would say “dont’ raise your voice” when he made me so mad I had to shout to make myself heard. He shut down conversations, walked out, refused to admit to anything. He even blamed me for the night we broke up, I was really ill and he refused to look after me, shouted at me and in the end then turned it around and said I had ’shut him out’ and he ‘wanted to get close to me’
These people have the ability to make others feel crazy and you must walk away.. now and forever. It will only get worse
Sounds like you have, well done and keep on looking after you, he will be fine, they always are
Best
Abbyx
Froggy, the modern definition of codependence, I think, has evolved to describe patterns developed in childhood to deal with life that remain in adulthood and allow people to remain in unhealthy relationships with others who are not good for them.
There are many ways that two people can relate.
But it certainly does describe staying in a relationship and longing for a person who acted so unlovingly.
Abby,
Actually, they are not fine. I know you’ve read Susan’s posting on Karma; and I’m sure you realize that a person who treats others so badly builds up anger, resentment, and dislike around him. In fact, these people are supposed to get worse with age, and their circle gets smaller and smaller. Of course, people like us feel bad for them. BUT IT IS NOT OUR PROBLEM!
Hi abby. I’m recovering from my move and restructuring how I’m going to continue working on myself. I feel SO much better now that I’m out of that apartment where he had imprinted the atmosphere, and I’m out of that area where I ran into his car all the time. And now I’m with my family in my hometown. MUCH better.
I had to fight off obsessing yesterday, but I did it with more self-knowledge and better tools. I turned the obsessing inwards and thought WHAT DO I NEED that is making me go that direction? And the truth is that although I have my family here, now I need to create a social life here!
bluebird: thanks for the support, I really needed it… it is really nice to get some positive vibrations. I really feel i have been neglecting my own needs for the sake of mending a toxic relationship… but i really believed in this.
abbychaya, thanks for writing about your experience, it was amazing, sad, and a relief to read it. I agree with you- when a person is just not capable of admitting their faults, it’s best to keep them out of our lives. I am doing that.
I have to tell you I am not longing to go back to him at all. I think I’m longing to have somebody that is my partner in life, love, with whom I can spend my days and night and share my life. I know it was horrible for me to be with him, he gave me the role of the crazy one, the scapegoad, the ubearable one all the time. And I know he was not right at all.
I know he has issues and is and will always be unable to even admit to himself. Even from his last reactions I know he is manipulative (he called me only 3 days after the breakup, among other things he told me to be friends and I could call him anytime i needed him to help me in anything :s)
He just wanted to make me suffer, he was boasting about how great he is feeling with his new life. So I don’t expect anything good anymore and am sticking to NC.
I would like to thank you all for the support… although in a conscious level I know I can be free and concentrate on developing myself, do what I have not been able to do lately, but I still have sad days. So I’m sure I will be checking the posts. Oh and also to read about your issues and to give support.
Serenity: I have read about codependency, and I have thought long and hard about it. Although it’s definitely not good I have been in a relationship like this, I have not discovered myself in the descriptions. I have been aware things do not work as they should, but we lived together, he did not know anybody, and I have several times told him to leave but he would always come back or could not leave (for financial reasons). Also he seemed to love me and offered the hope of changing… i’m sure this was something I had to learn from… but I am just not recognizing myself in codependent… I’ll try getting the other books suggested here, first i’ll check where the expression “walking on eggshells” comes from.
Hugs to all. Froggy.
Froggy: if you have someone treating you as badly as he did and you love him more than anything, there is def codep going on.
I think you are in big time denial here.
Rama- no, I’m not in denial. I am talking about what I felt for him and what my emotions were… He was not treating me bad all the time, and of course first I did not see the red flags… I would always fight and try to make him see my point. When I gradually saw it was impossible I knew this could not go on. I knew I wanted an understanding, empathic partner.
I would not like to come here to defend myself, I can’t explain the story of the whole relationship, but believe me I’m NOT codependent. I know it. I never thought his reactions were acceptable, but there was no other way for me to solve it, it has ended now.
Froggy I’m not trying to make you defensive but this paragraph you wrote above is a definition of codependency.
“It was just me trying to change according to his expectations and him insisting on me to lose myself so he would be happy. He would never ever take responsibility or talk about things he had done wrong. All the weight of the relationship was on me, when it worked he reminded me of this “look, you are ok now, and see, the relationship works! it only depends on you” and when he would label me for unknown reasons with something that was untrue and unnecessary, I would reject the label and he would say I was quarelling alone, he is calm and peaceful, and I was always just putting up fights.”
if its not codependency its something else like low selfesteem or something else but it sounds like codep tome.
I know it is NOT. Maybe i’m painting the picture from his point of view, the way he wanted things to work. But they did not. I would never accept I was wrong. I would always reject when he did or said something that was not right for me. Even days before he left he said I am too strong, his problems was that he could not break me.
Of course when he asked me to change in something and we agreed on both of us changing, I tried to keep to that. But it only became obvious with time that he remained rigid, inflexible, and has not changed (in the basic issues). And that he can’t and does not want to change. I only discovered and realized with time that he actually felt he was flawless. This is unbelievable to me, so it only came out gradually.
It is so difficult to tell you how it worked. The responsibility part I wrote about can also be misleading. I am trying to put my conclusions into words, and these conclusion did not come at a glance. As soon as I knew he was not healthy I wanted this to end. But believe me, I can’t explain all the details.
As for my low self-esteem, no, i doubt that, I would not be here if i actually had low self-esteem. Maybe i was trying with him and not left him bc i live in a small place, i can choose from just a few guys, and i virtually don’t have support (issues with family+few and distant friends).
Oh, and other circumstances I would no post in detail- he left things for living with me, and he virtually knew nobody here and had no money. So i could have just thrown him on the street. I did not do that several times.
All in all, this has been sad… and I’d rather talk about avoiding people who for their own complexes and PD’s want to destroy us… but I know what i did and I won’t blame myself or say i’m codependent, i have been fighting to get my life straight, believe me.
This is not MY problem, it’s HIS.
Froggy
healthy people are not with people as sick as you describe him. something is up with you and other than “not enough guys to go around” it seems like you dont want to know whta that is. you stayed with this guy. you said you loved him and from your description he is a sick sick guy. something in you allowed yourself to be in this relatinship and its not something you want to look at
Rama, I understand you think I’m unhealthy and denying something. But i know how it went and i know how i wanted this to be ok or end. I know how we lived and I know why it only ended now.
Nothing in me allowed myself to be called all these things, nothing in me allowed him to think I start fights. I have been struggling this to be over. I know it’s easy to tell me it’s me who’s been accepting things, but i know how all went and i know i did not accept the unacceptable. I get the point and I understand you are insisting, but i know myself and i know what i did.
As for love, this is an emotions you can’t override. I loved him a lot, of course that does not mean I accepted the issues that came up with time.
And before anyone else starts picking on me, I have been living with him, and I feel miserable bc the relationship was frustrating, I have to think about, now I’m quite alone and have just a few people i can talk to. No wonder I’m talking about this on this site. But I think you really can’t judge me by reading a few lines that I composed after this is over. This is a summary and you can’t guess what happened and how.
No one is picking on you or judging you. If you dont want to use this as an opportunity to look at yourself, then dont. But I dont know what your looking for if your not.
maybe you should tell us what you want from us because obviously were not delivering it
And if someone treated me that badly I would have NO problem throwing them on the street. Sounds codep to me but not to you. Thats just what I hear.
Froggy, codependency is not a big deal… in many cases it’s just natural wonderful caringness taken to the point where the person allows another person to have a bad effect on them…Beattie’s book describes this well. Of course there are many different permutations and levels of what goes on- every relationship and individual is unique. What psychologists do is look at patterns. It is understanding the patterns that gives us power in living our lives.
And many unhealthy people who hurt others have GREAT and WONDERFUL sides to them; but even if someone has a good side, it doesn’t mean the other person has to put up with emotional manipulation or abuse.
Relationships take 2 people: And if one stays despite the bad parts that are going on, that person needs to look at herself and figure out what’s up. And telling someone to go, and then not enforcing that, is remarkable of notice.
One posting you might want to take a look at is called “On Attraction”.
Things are still early for you. Go back in the blog history and start reading through things. See if any postings ring important for you. Regardless of self-labeling or not, there’s a lot of stuff that can help you out. Don’t let a book or posting’s name scare you away from empowerment through information.
Oh, and Froggy, Rama is DEFINITELY not picking on you or judging you. Are you judging yourself? Don’t!
I took the longest time to forgive myself for getting into the last relationship I was in (in which the guy had a GREAT and SWEET side). If you are feeling defensive, that is *totally normal*. Your mind is in turmoil after going through what you’ve gone through. Everyone, and especially people dealing with relationship breakups, second-guesses themselves and thinks of “could’ve, would’ve should’ve”s. But guess what? The Now is where we’re at. And we can make it “different, better, more” as Susan says.
And as for Rama, Rama has some of the clearest and most focused vision here. I keep on wishing she would kick my butt.
It’s called “tough love” because it’s love.
Froggy,
If you think you don’t have codependency issues, then that’s GOOD! The thing is, like Serenity said, relationship consists of 2 people. This relationship was extremely frustrating for you. But you stayed in it for long time (you didn’t say in your first post how long, but it must be long enough to give you this much pain). Maybe you were just waiting for your patience to run out. Maybe there was some other reason. Only you will know better. But right now, from what you have written, it seems all you are feeling is this pain of break-up, loss of a relationship. So, have you read the post about “Emotions of Grief During a Break-up”?
Finding faults in ourselves is not the only purpose of the process people here believe. It’s just finding what works for MY OWN SELF. That’s what Serenity said, go through past posts. Find out what works best for you. It may not be here on this blog, it might be somewhere else. It could be in just talking to your close friends, it could be in just writing in your journal, it could be in just crying all alone… Do all those things that work for you. You don’t NEED to have done something wrong to get over a break-up, it’s just that many times, we did act in a way that caused US some harm. And if we acted like that, then we need to clear our act so that we don’t end up behaving the same way and end up in the similar kind of relationship.
Right now, I think, you really should read “Emotions of Grief During a break-up” and “Post break-up No No List”. And remember that you have a SELF to take worry about :)
(Susan, if you don’t have a pet parrot, I could fill the position…LOL I sound so much like her here..)
“As for my low self-esteem, no, i doubt that, I would not be here if i actually had low self-esteem. ”
I strongly disagree with this comment. I would argue that a lot of us have low self-esteem, which is why we found ourselves in bad situations and are here trying to recover from them. Susan’s posts are helpful because they try and make us see what we deserve, not what little we think we deserve.
The good news is, there is hope! Lots of it.
Yeah! I echo all this.. Froggy.. no one is saying you are in any way to blame or anything.. It took me the longest time to understand my ‘part’ in being with someone as unhealthy as my ex AS MUCH AS I LOVED HIM! I have now seen the dance and the drama that was as much, if not more, about my unresolved issues..
Having met someone recently who is so NOT how my ex was and who is loving, caring and empathetic is great, BUT it’s also thrown me for a loop and I’m still working on myself and being careful that I dont’ fall into any old patterns
Froggy.. its fine to be where you are and of course only you know the ins and outs but I resonate with your ‘co dependent’? not me! attitude. I had the same feelings that I didnt’ recognise myself in those descriptions. Well maybe not totally but the elemetns of trying to fix, trying to fix and being so bitterly disappointed when I couldn’t
Now being in a relationship where there is ‘no fixing’ that’s a challenge!
I’m just being gentle with myself and forgiving.. i’ve had a hard time and so, by the sounds of it, have you.
be good to you
Abbyxx
I posted here earlier (#7). If you even consider that a NPD individual can change, think again. I have been trying to recover from a 22 year marriage with a NPD/alcoholic who had multiple affairs and the last one with an employee of his practice who got pregnant…….This is what opened up pandora’s box and I fo