I’ve written about abuser’s remorse on here, where someone who has been abusive suddenly turns into a puddle and begs and pleads with you as you’re walking out the door. Abuser’s remorse is when this critical, controlling, angry person gets the hint that he (it’s usually a he, I’m not picking on you guys) has gone too far and must pull out all the stops to reel you back in with “I love you.” “I’ll never do this again.” “Please don’t leave me.” “Let’s talk about this.”
But I’ve never done the full-blown abusive relationship post because it is my fervant hope that most of you are not leaving those kinds of relationships. But over the past few days I’ve received email and read comments that lead me to believe that it’s not a small percentage who are in abusive relationships or getting out of abusive relationships.
If you’re not in an abusive relationship but know someone who is, feel free to pass on this post and anyone can write me privately.
Abuse can be physical, mental, emotional, verbal and sexual. It can be but doesn’t have to be all 5. Just because someone isn’t hitting you doesn’t mean they are not abusive.
I hesitate to use the words “semi-abusive” because abuse is abuse is abuse is abuse but sometimes the writing is on the wall and someone can’t see it because they shy away from labeling their relationship as abusive. One of the psychological tricks that a battered person’s head plays is “It’s not that bad.” in the same way an alcoholic might instantly bristle at being called an alcoholic but might be able to wrap his or her head around “problem drinker.” So to avoid turning off the very people I try to help, I allow myself to call some relationships “semi-abusive” but it is like being semi-pregnant.
I was in abusive relationships from the time I was 13 until I was 30. That’s a long 17 years. I immediately gravitated, out of the box, to abusive boys then men (although I shudder to label and abusive male a “man” since he is nothing of the kind. Coward is more like it.) I have come to feel, over the years, that any man who hits a woman or threatens a woman or even pretends to threaten…is not a man. And the solution is to leave. START PUTTING A PLAN INTO PLACE.
From a reader who works in DV. Please heed this advice!: The most lethal time for an abused person is when she/he is trying to leave the abuser. Have a plan and get back up! The news is full (seemingly) nice people whose partner was trying to leave and ended up dead. When in a domestically abusive situation, I say use universal precautions and assume anyone has the propensity for violence. See it everyday.
This is the national hotline and can refer people to help in their area.
1-800-799-SAFE . They can help them with safety planning too.
(if you need assistance I have this person’s email and she has offered to help anyone who needs it. please stay safe!!)
Most of my relationships were physically abusive but all of them had a verbal component and all of them had criticism and control as a backstory.
The number one culprit was my lack of self-esteem. This is not a blame-the-victim mentality. Everyone is responsible for his or her own actions. Meaning, abusers are responsible for their abuse. However, without a willing victim, their abuse has nowhere to go. Later on I would learn “remove the victim” but for years I did not know to do this, that I could do this or how to do this.
I didn’t know that I didn’t know.
I did not know because I thought everything was my fault. I had been raised in an abusive environment and was told that I basically made my mother crazy. Even when I was in therapy in my 30s I attempted to confront her about it and her answer was “You were not the easiest kid to raise.”
Oh really? Let me introduce you to 3 not the easiest kids to raise: my three sons. Not easy kids to raise yet not abused by me and not juvenile deliquents. You can raise difficult kids with rules and limits and without abusing them. And they grow up to be wonderful, non-abusing men. IMAGINE THAT!
But I didn’t know that back then. I blamed my abuse on myself. I obviously made everyone do everything.
Without that mentality on the part of the victim, abuse has nowhere to go.
And abusers keep that mentality going by blaming you for everything. My ex husband blamed me for things he said I was thinking when I was thinking nothing of the sort. I was defending thoughts I didn’t have. How crazy is that?
Once I tried to show him I was a “good wife” and I waxed the floors. When he came home he said I purposely left streaks on them so he would never again ask me to do it. I begged him to SEE that I was trying and I had no intention of leaving streaks on the floor (I couldn’t even SEE the streaks until he pointed one or two feint ones out and I had waxed the floors in FIVE large rooms and he found one or two pale streaks). But I stood there, like a dope, begging him to give me SOME CREDIT for the floor and begging him to BELIEVE that I did it out of the goodness of my heart.
I never REACHED, “Wait a minute. You’re such an ahole to even bring up those streaks and for telling me what my intentions are.” I had been in “on the defensive” mode my whole life. I had no idea how to switch gears and question this behavior on HIS part. It never occurred to me that perhaps this was unacceptable.
The thing is that you become so CONSUMED with trying to convince the abuser that you are not whatever way, you overlook the fact that he or she is a psycho. That’s part of the dance.
It’s very very wearing. You become driven to prove to this person that you are a good and gentle and loving person who would never think or do anything of the sort. Your life becomes one on the defense so you never get to jump over to the offense and wonder what the hell he or she is doing. It’s all about you and how IF ONLY you were less or more or taller or shorter or older or younger or cleaner or neater or thrifty or friendly or not shy or want so much or expect so much or look in the direction of others or not do this or more do more or that or born on a Tuesday or cranky when it’s raining or moody or perturbed or WHATEVER excuse explains why you are abused or criticized or not cared about.
It makes as much sense as saying, “How can I care about someone who wears yellow on Tuesdays? I’m sorry but I can’t.”
But those are the messages and the CRAZINESS of the messages that we receive. I’m sorry oh-unworthy-one, but it’s your fault I act like a complete and utter crazy person. It’s not me, it was that wearing-yellow-on-Tuesday thing you do…I mean who can live with that? If you just straightened up and wore the appropriate colors, I would not be such an insane person.
And we buy it. We run around and eradicate all the yellow from our lives. And next Tuesday we wear pink but that’s wrong too and then black and purple and blue and orange and they’re all wrong too and then the day comes when the abuser says, “You’re so stupid you don’t even wear yellow on Tuesdays.” WHAT? Wait, I thought yellow on Tuesdays was bad. It’s not? Oh let me run right out and get some yellow. There must be something wrong with my hearing or something wrong with my head. So you put the yellow back. And of course it’s “I TOLD YOU that yellow on Tuesdays is NEVER appropriate!!! You just do this to make me miserable!!!”
And so it goes….
You cannot win. You will not win. The goal is for you never to win. And you can just FORGET that any of your reasonings or any of your “yes, but you said…….” or “I was only………” or “I thought…………” is going anywhere.
Not only ISN’T it going anywhere, but the GOAL is for it not to go anywhere. The only rule is that the rules constantly change. The only constant is that you can’t win. The only goal is to keep you off your pins and trying hard to please someone who cannot be pleased. The GOAL is to keep you twisted up in knots and everything is your fault. So there.
SCAPEGOATING
Every narcississtic control freak needs their scapegoat. I’ve written on here that the summer before we separated, I went out of the house to walk the dog. We owned a one family house and next door a 3 family where my husband’s grandmother lived on the first floor. My kids made a path between the houses and everyone came and went in between the two houses. My husband’s friend was up, staying with us. His grandmother, two cousins and brother were staying with her. Several people had keys to both houses.
I went out the side door with the dog and my brother-in-law and friend were in the house. The brother left out the side door and then the friend left and closed the door behind him, locking all of us out of the house. My ex came to find me where I was unaware and walking the dog. He asked me if I had keys and I said I didn’t. Why would I? His friend had locked us out and he stood there, in the street, screaming at ME for not having keys to the house. No one else had keys to the house but it was MY fault. I was the one who got screamed at.
This is a typical “Something upsetting/frustrating happened and we need someone to blame. You’re it.” and you’re always it. And you get into the same mindset. Something happened and someone has to be blamed. No one can deal with the fact that sometimes shit happens.
A lightbulb went on for me that day. I didn’t leave for six months but because that was such a clear display of being blamed for something I had nothing, whatsoever, to do with, I was able to look back on all these times when I was blamed for things I did not do. Things got very clear for me that day. It took a long time because I was the scapegoat in my adoptive family. A role I continued to play because I didn’t know what other role to play. But that day was the beginning of the end of me being the scapegoat.
In healthy relationships blame and castigation have no place. People automatically take responsibility for their own stuff and everyone recognizes that stuff happens. In abusive relationships, whenever something goes wrong, someone is to blame and there will be hell to pay. Whether you’re actually responsible or not.
SPLITTING
The abused sees the abuser as two different people: the one who swept her off her feet (the real him) and the one who is an abusive bastard (not the real him).
BOTH personalities are him. You cannot pick and choose. You simply cannot. It is difficult and sometimes IMPOSSIBLE to understand how this person who did such sweet and wonderful things and seemed to truly and sincerely love you has turned into this abusive jerk.
Stop trying to understand it. Just accept it. He IS an abusive jerk and that sweet person, whether it was real or to rope you in is gone forever. When he gets abuser’s remorse, the old him is not coming back…it’s just a ploy to keep you in his control.
I beat my head against that wall forever…thinking of my ex…when we were going out and the sweet and wonderful things he did. Were they real? Who knows? Who cares? They matter not when he is swinging wildly between abusing, cheating, and abuser’s remorse to rope me back in.
After a while I had to see that the romanticized fantasy I had of him was just that: a fantasy. Even if it had been real at one time, it was no longer and it was NEVER coming back.
Stop splitting. Stop being in denial when he is “normal”. The abuse will be back.
NAME CALLING
My ex called me every name in the book including ones (yes plural) that I would never repeat. He called me names in front of my children and not only didn’t I like it because it was degrading but he was their role model. I didn’t want to have sons who would grow up and use these disgusting phrases.
But after we broke up I banned the word bitch from my house. It was not to be used ever by anyone at any time. I have a list of “don’t ever say these words if you want to live” and of course the n word and the c word and a few other choice ones (mostly racist, homophobic and sexist garbage words) are on there. When I put the word bitch on there it was a personal standard-raising thing.
I don’t like it. It’s too easy to use, too accepted and overused in today’s society but DO NOT say it around me. My sons and my husband have honored this and of course it would be in reference to someone else because if anyone called me a bitch, well I would have to kick them into the street unceremoniously. If they even start with the b word in reference to someone else they usually stop, glance over at me and say “sorry” quickly but that has happened only a handful of times. I’ve never heard my husband use it since I told him, on our second date, that it was not okay.
These standards are what they are after years of withering verbal abuse. I simply have no tolerance for it. I don’t explain it and I don’t let people tell me why it’s unreasonable. Standards. Again. Gotta have em.
Words do hurt and they do degrade and they do humiliate and to think that someone who is supposed to love you could ever call you a name let alone a horrible name, is unthinkable.
Love is an action but it is also what you don’t do. My husband has never called me a name in 11 years. He’s not called me stupid or an idiot or incompetent or anything that is a negative label. It doesn’t fly with me. The first word would be the last one.
For years I listened to name calling and malicious teasing. When I was obviously hurt it was “oh you know I don’t mean it” or “I was just angry” or “I was just joking…” or “I was just…” Well I was just leaving. Good bye.
Verbal abuse or verbal put downs have NO PLACE in a loving relationship. None.
JEALOUSY, CONTROL, THREATS
There is a lot of jealousy, a lot of false accusations and a lot of control by way of those accusations. Again, proving that you’re not doing what you’re not doing. Threats of reprisals. Threats against coworkers or friends because they “know” he’s looking at you.
Trying to control someone’s anger who is completely out of control is impossible.
The Dance That Partners Do In Abusive Relationships
Drama is the name of the game in abusive relationships. Keeping everything swirling on the outside so that two inadequate people with major issues and problems in their backgrounds DO NOT have to look inside.
The abused is just as addicted as the abuser (sometimes more). Get help.
CODEPENDENCY
Abusive relationships are codependent relationships. By virtue of the lack of boundaries and the inability of people to understand that YOUR RIGHT TO SWING YOUR ARM ENDS AT THE TIP OF MY NOSE.
Boundaries are MISSING in abusive relationships whether its verbal, emotional or physical abuse. MISSING.
No one knows “You begin and end somewhere and I begin and end somewhere else.” No one knows this.
If you are in an abusive relationship, you are a raging codependent. Get help.
CHAOS ADDICTION DRAMA ADDICTION LOVE ADDICTION
Even if there is no substance abuse or alcohol abuse there is addiction present. The dance of anger comes from chaos addiction, drama addiction and love addiction. Being addicted to the low of the abuse and the high of makeup sex. Keeping everything swirling on the outside to avoid the emptiness on the inside.
And both people suffer from it.
Misplaced Sympathy
The abused has sympathy for the abuser. WHAT? Yes, the abused doesn’t want to hurt him, thinks of herself as a nice person a good person a loving person and he will see that one day.
Guess what? No he will not. He is a narcissistic JERK who is self-centered and his only interest in you is control and sex. That’s it. Move along. Nothing to see here.
He’s never going to get it. He’s never going to COME TO HIS SENSES. It doesn’t matter how much you FEEL SORRY FOR HIM. Stop it and put your emotional energy into you and your children. RUN AWAY FROM THIS LOSER.
The ENEMY of Abusive Relationships:
Leaving: I always suggest leaving. yes I know it’s hard, but it’s the thing to do. I’ve heard every excuse in the book and as someone who left with 3 kids and no job…I don’t exactly buy any of them. GET OUT.
Again: an urgent reminder from a DV specialist: Have a safety plan in place first. The most lethal time for an abused person is when she/he is trying to leave the abuser. Have a plan and get back up! The news is full (seemingly) nice people whose partner was trying to leave and ended up dead. When in a domestically abusive situation, I say use universal precautions and assume anyone has the propensity for violence. See it everyday.
This is the national hotline and can refer people to help in their area. 1-800-799-SAFE . They can help them with safety planning too.
PLEASE STAY SAFE!
I know I was so angry the night I left I could have killed my ex. But in other situations he could have killed me. He was screaming that I was not taking his children.
I also had an ex boyfriend who tried to kill me on 3 separate occasions after I left him. One night he laid in wait for me and as I headed up my street he ran in front of my car. The next thing I knew he was in my car telling me to drive. When we got on the highway he tried to take the wheel and crash us, saying, “If I can’t have you, no one can.”
These people are psychos. STAY SAFE.
Then these are the enemies of the abusive relationship:
Self-esteem: people who have it won’t tolerate abuse. Get some.
Boundaries: people who have them won’t be abused. Get some.
Therapy: people who are in it can get to the reasons why they’re in abusive relationships. Get some.
12 step programs: if you have issues like codependency, substance or alcohol abuse (yours or someone elses), love addiction, sex addiction etc etc etc get to the 12 step program that you need. Get names, get numbers, get a sponsor. Get help.
Women Who Love Too Much by Robin Norwood: READ IT.
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie: READ IT.
Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them: Susan Forward: READ IT.
ME:
I am living proof that there is life, a good life, a GREAT life, after abusive relationships.
I am happily married to a man who loves me…but only because I loved myself first.
Get out, work on yourself, love yourself and watch life happen.
YOU CAN DO THIS.
PLEASE KNOW YOU CAN DO THIS!!
Applause. Applause. Applause. I wish I had known this way back when. When we don’t know it, it’s simply because we don’t know better. Comes a time when we have to get it, or we face the prospect of losing everything. And if we lose “them,” in the end, we’ve won, or at least we can begin the process of learning a different way of living, thinking, defining what love really is. It’s such a nebulous and difficult journey, and we know “they” are as they are because they got the short (or sharp) end of the stick somewhere way back when, too. So it’s easy to fall into the saviour trap, or as one very dear friend once told me, “to love them into healing.” She finally left when his knee was on her neck, and she fled into the night with the clothes on her back – after she regained consciousness, that is.
And it’s not always physical. The verbal and emotional onslaught can be just as soul killing. Brainwashing is not out of the question. For who are we to believe, if not the ones that we love, or who say they love us? What a sad and sickening testament to Love, and misguided trust.
But the big AHA comes when “we” finally get it. To finally comprehend that we have had a part in the dance. I once wrote something about if they had to arrest him for my “murder,” (figuratively, since I just felt dead), that they would have to haul my lifeless body in as well as the accomplice to my own demise. One of the most sobering thoughts I had to digest in Susan’s words here was that if we are participants in an unhealthy relationship, we’d best be looking in the mirror to see yet another unhealthy being. The difference in them and us, when we decide to CHANGE, in whatever form that takes, is that we make that decision to take responsibility for our lives, for action or inaction, for our pasts, for our future, for our sanity, for our hearts and for our souls, or maybe for our survival. We take responsibility – they continue to BLAME, or just don’t do anything at all. I cannot even blame him so much anymore, because I didnt’ know better, until I did, and I allowed it, until I didn’t anymore. And not allowing it meant leaving. And it’s still hard and it still hurts, but now there are more better days than bad ones, and deep down, I know the truth of it. But no matter how much we can rationalize their damaged selves, there’s still no allowance for their mistreatment of us. No excuses. No more free rides.
Thank you for this one, Susan. It’s important. Sometimes this is a hard one to get your mind (and your heart) around – one of those forest for the trees things. Love blinds us to some things, especially to the things we don’t want to see. But the time comes for us to take the blinders off, and deal with Truth, and stand up, straight, and walk out the door. Into our new lives…..even if it feels like we’ll be crawling for a while. No matter, it’s movement and direction that count. Keep on keeping on, everyone. We’re going to a better place.
Thanks Susan, that really helped and I am beginning ‘to get’ what i have allowed to happen to me, through not knowing. one question though, why if my ex is the abuser did HE decide to end it ?(even though i had been contemplating it my self but torn as descibed above) is it remorse he feels, and just doesn’t want to admit it and thinks by ending it he can start afresh? forget he did those things to me,? did he realise to himself his role in all this and think oh my god i hate myself, or does he truly believe i am the problem and ended it because he couldn’t be with me anymore. just wondering.
as i was reading the above post i was nodding my head to everything especially the Yellow part. although i do remember myself saying the words ‘i was only joking’ which i said because a) i WAS only joking, i have a dry sense of humour and he took offence to it. or B) i could tell he didn’t like my opinion or feeling, but i know now i am entitled to MY feelings and opinions, we don’t share the same head, so what if 2 people disagree of have differing views, as long those differences aren’t fundamental then it’s no big deal, obviously if he is a racist and you are not then that is fundamental, or like to break an egg on the side of the pan once, and he likes to do it twice, neither is wrong, but he will say his way is the right way and your way is wrong, thats just silly, and petty. (which did happen alot with me and him), plus i know the reason why ‘we were getting on’ as well as the above, but because when he did the controlling thing, put me down thing, the yellow thing etc… all as desribed above, i would say no, you said this, this and this, (i do know my own mind) or if said my thoughts were wrong the ones you defend but were thinking, or the thoughts you were thinking but he didn’t like, i would say look, i do have my own opinion here, aren’t i allowed? to which he would argue back. etc…. i am beginning to see………slowly
Thank you! xxx
supposed to say ‘we weren’t getting on’ above
‘the ones you defend but wern’t thinking’ sposed to say
Stephanie: the kicker is when the abuser ends it. It is originally to punish. It’s testimony as to how much stuff is “built up” in their own heads. That they are the misbehaving party and yet they end it. I went through this with my ex. I left but then I wanted to get back together and he was critical and told me everything that was wrong with me as if I would be blessed to take him back. Right.
Hang in there Stephanie. Keep working on you. You might want to read those books. Be good to Stephanie.
Awesome! Awesome! Awesome! I loved this post. I agree with what you say here. You wrote self-esteem…get some. I know that I have been in emotionally and verbally abusive relationships because my self-esteem is low. How does one go from growing up feeling bad about yourself and even worse as an adult because dating critical, unfaithful, unloyal men to having high self esteem? I would love it if you would post some specific steps that we could print out to increase our self esteem. I loved when you wrote that your now wonderful husband loved you because you first loved yourself. I just don’t know or really understand how to love myself when most of the time, I don’t feel like I even really like myself or that I matter. After being dumped by every man I loved and blaming the failures on myself and feeling like a failure in my personal life, I don’t feel like I’m even close to liking myself anymore and I know I need to get there before I will have true love in my life. Thanks Susan.
Lisa Anne
I just want to add that Susan is totally correct that the most dangerous time is when the abused is trying to leave. I had an acquaintance (she was my friends best-friend) who FINALLY left her physically and verbally abusive husband. Went into hiding on a friday. Thought it was safe to go back to the house and grab some stuff the next day when her husband was supposed to be golfing with a friend. My friend went with her. They were in the house, the husband had been watching for her, came in, had a gun; Long story short, he shot the wife in the head then turned the gun on himself. Both died. Left two children behind. My friend witnessed the entire thing, is lucky that she wasn’t killed as well. (Obviously she has been traumatized for life.) I still don’t understand why they didn’t have the police escort them back to the house to get her stuff, but having never been in that situation can’t even begin to understand how the victim thinks or has been brainwashed to think. PS there is absolutely no one kind of person who abuses, these people were well-educated, employed, upper middle class people!! It can happen to ANYONE.
I’m grateful that I’ve never had to experience the kind of abuse that would make me fear for my life – though I do always think “there, but for the grace of God, go I” because I have all the characteristics or behaviors associated with a victim of abuse. I’ve always told myself that I would never allow a man to put his hands on me, and I’m sure I never would NOW, but I think before it could have happened easily, despite my “never me” philosophy. And I’m sure it’s a different situation altogether when you’re in the midst of the craziness. Not to mention that I’ve allowed myself to be abused emotionally and verbally, so how much of a jump would it really have been for physical abuse to enter the scene? So…my point is that I’m glad I’m learning these things and working on myself so I don’t EVER have to experience that. My ex, in at least two arguments that I can remember, called me an *sshole during the argument, as if it were my name, as in “*sshole, I told you…” I realize now that my “extreme” reaction to this and the reason I got so angry at him for it, was because deep down something was trying to tell me “THAT IS NOT OKAY”. Of course, when I expressed this to him, his thing was “well, sorry, but you were acting like one” and accused me of just trying to change the subject away from what the original argument was about. Why?!? Because I was standing up for something I felt strongly about?? That’s where my “no win” situation came into play all the time. I either suffered in silence by not expressing my feelings or opinions in order to try to keep the peace, or I tried to say how I felt, and was (a) accused repeatedly of “just being too sensitive,” (b) made to feel that my feelings were totally invalid or inappropriate, ie “it’s not a big deal,” and/or (c) told I just had “PMS and needed to relax.” If that was the case, I would have needed to see a doctor to stop the blood loss from all those periods, because apparently I was having several every month!!! It was infuriating – I know I am responsible for my actions, but in that crazy-making situation, I’m not surprised that yes, sometimes I did fly off the handle and “go nuts” over something that NORMALLY wouldn’t be that big a deal, but what is normal about that situation?? I mean, when you’re the ONLY one reacting to anything, and the other person is constantly on “autopilot,” and not reacting at all, it’s very hard to get a handle on what an appropriate response is to anything. And then I started to feel like maybe I WAS the crazy one. But the more I tried to stifle my feelings to avoid being “too sensitive,” the more I found myself exploding at the least provocation. And then got blamed for that too. (Wow, I am starting to see that my relationship was at least emotionally abusive.) I remember a specific instance that sticks out in my mind like it was yesterday – we had two cats, and a very old, crappy house that our landlord refused to fix up. One night, one of the cats was sitting in the window in the back room, and leaned against the screen, which was wood-framed and rotting out of the window. She fell out into the backyard when the screen frame gave way. They were not outside cats – they were front-declawed and defenseless outside. There were no lights in the backyard, so I had to rush out and try to find her in the dark. In her confusion at being outside, she went into a neighbors yard through a hole in the fence. My ex drove the car around to the next street over to see if she’d come out that way. To make a long story short, I ended up being able to coax her back into the yard with some tuna fish, and my ex and I were finally able to grab her and get her back into the house (she does NOT liked to be picked up). Well, once we were inside, and the adrenaline started to wear off, I lost it – I had almost lost one of my “babies”! I was sobbing. What was his response?? He got MAD at me for being upset and just could not understand WHY in the world I was crying when she was fine and safe back in the house. Just didn’t get it. So then I cried about the cat AND about the fact that my insensitive “bananahead” (to quote Susan) boyfriend couldn’t even have the least sympathy for how I was feeling. But I was the *sshole. Right. So I guess I was also the *sshole when we went out to the bar one night, and I was tired and wanted to go home. He was having a good time with his friend, so I said, you stay, I’ll go home and get some sleep. He said fine, he would get a ride from someone or walk (the bar wasn’t that far from our house). I went home and slept until I woke up around midnight and he wasn’t home yet. So I called and asked him when he thought he might be getting back. Told me he was going to finish the beer he was drinking and head home then. I feel back asleep – woke up to him stumbling through the door, completely wasted, at 3:30 am. He then proceeded to the bathroom to puke all over and then come to bed next to me covered in his own mess. I was livid. I yelled, I screamed, but he was so gone he couldn’t even speak English. I cleaned up the bathroom, put him in clean underwear like he was a damn baby, and being so furious with him, just could not sit there in the same space with him. So I left him a note on the bathroom mirror and went to my mom’s for the night. The next day around noon, I get a text from him. To apologize?? NOOOO – he was MAD AT ME for leaving him like that, saying that he’s “glad he actually woke up since no one was there to make sure he was breathing”. WHAT?!?! Right, because I was the one who shoved a funnel in his mouth and poured in the beer…but yet, it would have been MY FAULT if he’d gotten alcohol poisoning and died. I now see that he ridiculous, not a man, but a large, spoiled child who has no idea how to take responsibility for his own feelings or actions. I’m actually starting to feel glad that I got away from that mess. And I have a date tonight. So there! ;-P
Wow, sorry for the loooong post – guess I was on a roll!! :)
Lucy: don’t apologize for letting it all out. :) Glad you shared!
He was king baby sitting on the throne! Good riddance to bad rubbish!
I have been struggling for months over this separation thing. My husband left five months ago. I see the abuse, I get it but I can’t seem to stop myself from trying to prove to him that I did love him. He plays the victim to the fullest extent. I live in a cloud of guilt. I just don’t know how to put a stop to this. It’s hurting my friends who have stood by me and helped me through this. If I don’t take his calls and text messages, he uses the kids, guilts them and gets them to control me through guilt. My kids are angry with me and half want him back and half want this stupidity to end. They believe and he convinced them that I have no right to move on with my life, he is being punished enough after all because he didn’t mean to have the affair, break my nose, ribs, ankle choked me and put holes through every wall in the house. He is just a nice guy after all and IF I just did as I am told he would quit hurting me. Some days I really feel that I could have managed his abuse, If I would have, all the people around me wouldn’t be hurting so much. I want to stand in the middle of a field and scream!!!! Like the writer I have spent a lifetime being abused and I feel so powerless to stop it.
Yvonne: you are not powerless to stop it. You need to put boundaries in place. He cannot control you through the kids unless you let him. You MUST put boundaries into place with your children and let them know it is not okay for them to tell you what to do. You are NOT powerless and you have nothing to prove to him. You need to tell your children that it is not okay for dad to comment on you moving on with your life and you need to not listen to this. You don’t need to explain anything to your children EXCEPT that you love them and that you are there for them and that you need to do what you need to do for you.
If he abused you in such a way you do not need to make it OKAY for him or your children or anyone else. You have an obligation to your children to show them, by actions, that you do not need to put up with abuse or mistreatment. That is how you break the cycle of abuse. You need to model for them that what their father did was NOT OKAY and you need to make that message very very clear.
You are not a victim. Stay strong and forget what he says. you do not want to hear it from him or from the children. You need to move on and stop worrying about what everyone thinks of that.
Take care of you.
I’m so grateful whenever anyone publicizes the dynamics of abuse, especially in the emotionally abusive relationship. So many women (so many people) think if you don’t have bruises and scars on the outside, it must not be abuse. But the bruises and scars on the inside are the hardest to heal because they’re invisible when we don’t validate them.
I was drawn into an abusive relationship when I was very young and, frankly, didn’t know any better. It was, in fact, my first serious relationship. (There’s a great foundation, huh??) I didn’t even understand what was going on until one of my college psychology classes introduced me to personality disorders and it hit home that I was dating a pathological narcissist.
Two sites that I’ve found very helpful and that I would encourage others who have “danced the dance” with an abuser to visit are narcissism authority Sam Vaknin’s site and the MSN support group for survivors of abusive relationships with narcissists.
Susan, thank you so much for this encouraging, informative site and for sharing your life story with everyone. What a wonderful influence you are!
Wow..this describes my current situation to a tee..Really mind blowing and crazy that it feels like she just read my mind and said and wrote things only my best friend would know.I am in a roller coaster drama infested relationship with someone who does verbally abuse me and once has hit me.Yes i feel ashamed and like a pathetic loser for even saying these things aloud but also writing them.Its like i know i NEED to get away really i do but my heart yes its crazy i do feel sorry for him and dont wanna hurt him?? I am SICK right? this post is exactly us we go back and forth and his abusers remorse is what gets me right back in when at the time i feel strong..like YES i am leaving no matter what..then here we go again this psychotic dance.He obviously lies,i believe him and were back again and the same point again..its like i can see this relationship is going NOWHERE but i still cant go because YES i have unresolved grief and you described it perfectly i necessarily do not love this person this much its the not having to deal with yet another loss..I am gaining some insight and understanding of what i need to do and i just need to find the “old” me who would never take this crap from anyone..but she has been lost–the strong person i used to be..I WILL find the strenghth it just will take time on my part and getting a gameplan in motion. I have awesome parents that will take me back in but the sick part is my mom says if i go back home she says i know i WILL have to cut him off completely and deal with it ALL and face myself,my issues and the pain of yet another LOSS..So i am afraid of ME i guess..Thanks for listening this just really hit home and i really need to re-evaluate and get to moving on!!
I would like to see more information about neglect and isolation as abuse. My exboyfriend was not outright physically abusive and he didn’t hurl insults, but he would hold me at arms length and neglect me, and if I said something about it he would always threaten to leave, or leave outright. I ended up feeling like I was walking on eggshells, could never ask him for anything, and wasn’t worth his time. It killed my self esteem.
He also used an STD to keep me “his” and make me feel like I couldn’t move on. He lied and manipulated me into thinking he wanted a family and kids and then told me later he could never give that to me and treated me as if I was ridiculous for thinking he could. This kind of manipulative abuse — which would probably fall in the narcissistic abuse category — is not discussed at all in these abusive relationship sites. It might be one of the most damaging and insidious forms of abuse, because you end up just feeling as if you are going crazy. It’s hard to pinpoint it. When I would confront him and say he clearly didn’t want a relationship and that we shoudl end it, he would say how much he loved our relationship and wanted to stay, but in the same breath tell me that he didn’t love me, “yet”. This went on for 2 years.
Anyone have any reading suggestions for this? If not, maybe I’ll do my own site! Or support group…
Sk–You are NOT alone, You can email me–ccrazeegyrl@yahoo.com–I am in this so called realtionship now..we live together and this has went on for a year now and i am trying to evaluate my situation even though i know what needs to be done.I feel the exact way the walkiing on eggshells cause no matter what i say its wrong or if hes having a bad day its all my fault somehow and the insults..alll do KILL your self esteem,i feel horrible at times.My mom boosts me back up reminding me of the real me i USED to know.It feels awful to think you cant ask for anything and yes not worth his time–thats me how i feel.YES mine is a master manipulator–i saw how he did it to others in his life all to get what he wanted and NOW me too..manipulation i too think is the most damaging–Thank you for saying that.I at times feel as if MAYBE just maybe i am the crazy one but i know in my right mind im not nor ever was.HE is sick and doesnt even remotely see it or anything wrong with his behavior.The only time he ever recognizes his behavior or OWNS up to it is twice when i REALLY was leaving him and he knew i WAS(keyword) was serious.Then the manipultaion of he’ll do better,try and controil his mouth and anger,counseling yadda..ya..My merry go round is STILL going round cause i am letting it..i am trying my hardest to leave and getting a gameplan togerher now..
SK – I went through that too and am very interested in learning more about that type of abuse. I thought that I was crazy because he technically never hit me, but, as you said, he punished me and made me feel like I had to work for his love and forgiveness when in reality I did nothing wrong. He took away any affection from me (to the point where I would pretend to be asleep when he came home so that he would have to touch my back!). He would make me feel so wrong for crying or being upset. When I did cry he would turn his back on me, and even went so far when we would fight and I would raise my voice (crying mind you) he would back up like he felt threatened or flinch like I was going to hit him! He made me feel like I was abusive and then some days would admit that he hated himself for using me like his doormat and punching bag. I am sorry, it can’t be both. And I still struggle with my self esteem because of it, and sometimes feel like I am a monster – when all I really did was love him! He was prince charming in the beginning and a monster at the end, and I felt like I made him that way, and I deserved it because you are supposed to bring out the good in someone not the bad…
Christie and SK:
Abusers are masters at creating chaotic, crazy-making relationships where the abused feels like the abuser or the abused feels responsible for turning an otherwise good person into an abuser. THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE. We do not have the ability to turn someone into a monster or an abuser. Nothing we do MAKES someone abuse us. If the abuser ever decides to get help for him/herself, it will take A LONG TIME AND A LOT OF PROFESSIONAL HELP for them to change themselves. It is not often that they get to that point of admitting they have a problem and seek help on their own.
If you are staying with an abusive person because you want to “love them” into change…you are enabling them. They need someone like that, who thinks that way, to be the other half of a dysfunctional relationship. When I was in a mentally/emotionally abusive relationship, I had to first get out and THEN examine my own problems. I couldn’t figure out my stuff while doing the dance with him. I couldn’t figure it out while dating anyone else, either. Focus on getting help for yourselves. I hope you will first take yourselves out of harm’s way.
Be safe.
Here’s a good post about guilt and staying in a bad relationship:
http://gettingpastyourpast.wordpress.com/2007/09/30/930-tftd-guilt-as-an-anchor-to-a-bad-situation/
I’m abusive, to those that I love. This is a real problem. It hurts them and then it hurts me to see them in pain. This has just been brought to my attention today. Its right, I am. I want to stop. How? What do I do? Who do I talk to? What should I do instead? I want a better way to work out conflicts. I need a better way to love.
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
-Crystal
How do you rebuild yourself afterwards? How do I deal with the fact that the man I love so deeply is manipulating and hurting me? How do I not feel stupid for staying? How do I not just want to die? How do I stop crying? How do I process that I made a mistake and put so much of my mind body and soul into someone that doesn’t truely love me like he said he did?
Sidney: You start with you. You look at your life and your attraction to people who hurt you. Where does that come from?
You didn’t know that you didn’t know so you don’t beat yourself up.
You do your grief, build your life and move on. You can do this.
Honestly, emotionally I have checked out. I told him it was over today and ended up calling him right back because I love him so much. Valentines day is tomorrow and I’ll feel like a loser being at home alone. Its weird like I see how I’m harming myself but I just can’t stop. I know he’ll keep abusing me but that feels better than dealing with another failed relationship @ 24 years old. Its like I crave love or something. This will probably end badly.
I didn’t talk to him for like a week. (I’ve went as far as a month before) Last night, he called from a pay phone so I wouldn’t recognize his number. He said, “are you trying to forget about me, you don’t want me, tell me you don’t want me” For some reason after he calls I get emotional and I can’t tell him its over.
Sidney: I suggest you get some therapy. You care about him more than yourself.
No one deserves to be abused but you’re opting for it.
I need help! I realized I was in a verbally abusive relationship a couple of months into my marriage. We started therapy just after our first anniversary and have been there a few times. I was ready to leave just before we started but figured I would give it a try. Am I just delaying the inevitable and putting too much faith in this or should I give it awhile longer. Things have gotten better but the woman I married should be able to control her mouth and what comes out of it if she really wanted this to work. I need some feed back please
Thank you all for sharing your stories. I keep reading them every day to realize that I am not alone and my recent break-up situation is not unusual. I am drawn to this “abusive – semiabusive” section because I am trying to figure out if I was in an abusive situation. Like some of you – I spent a good chunk of time feeling like I was walking on eggshells, being very careful not to upset him, and accepting his “I’m damaged goods” self-flagellation. We broke up on New Year’s Eve. He told me that we are not compatible because I am too optimistic. WHAT!!?? He exhibits traits of narcissism and is a prominent politician where I live. I cannot get away because he is always in the news and he is involved with my workplace. I feel like a crazy peraon because I can’t express myself fully and I don’t know what to do! I do not have any urge to contact him but do not feel strong enough to resist the phone that has recently started ringing again. Last time – he told me “You don’t deserve to be spoken to the I way I spoke to you.” Yet – he did not apologize. I can’t stop thinking about the what could have been – and although my head knows that this situation was a disaster (he never once told me he loves me in 4 years) – I am having a difficult time growing my spine and walking away. I feel more devastated now than I did when it first happened. It’s like some part of me – maybe my “too optimistic” part – is gone. I used to be albe to think that everything happens for a reason – but I am so so tired. I don’t know that I am capable of thinking like that any more. I appreciate all of your stories so much. Thank you for being here.
Anne,
I can relate to feeling “so tired”. When I first experienced the crazymaking behavior of emotional and verbal abuse I was confused all the time. I wanted to believe the person who was telling me all these things about my reality and our reality. But my gut kept telling me, “This is nuts!” Later when I learned something about the gaslighting aspect of abuse, I understood better why I felt confused all the time. Gaslighting is a behavior of the abuser that attempts to restructure the reality that’s designed to keep the victim off balance. It’s controlling behavior to confuse the victim enough so that she begins to doubt everything: her perceptions, her beliefs, and her identity.
It’s devasting. Overtime, the victim’s self-confidence, self-will, and self-knowledge is eroded. She’s convinced that what is down is up; what is up is down. The abuser and the abuse stands reality, as the victim has known it, upside down.
I compare the effect of abuse to brainwashing. Brainwashing that is not unlike brainwashing that prisoners-of-war experience. It involves a subtle system of intermittent rewards and punishments that gradually wears away the self and identity of the victim or prisoner. With the prisoner, the goal is is to condition the prisoner to maintain his own captivity. I believe it is the same in abusive relationships. Ultimately, the victim stops cueing in to her own instincts or intuition or perceptions to determine the sanity or insanity of the abusive situation. Instead, she turns to the abuser to arbitrate her reality and define who she is. Also, eventually the victim believes, not only what the abuser tells her is so, but she believes that her very survival depends on her abuser. Deep down, she believes she needs her abuser to survive — without him, she will die. She cannot live without him. At this point, the brainwashing is complete.
This is how I see emotional abuse. I consider much more devastating, much more insidious than physical abuse. It’s more debilitating because often people around you will “explain it away.” And it can be hard to find support as you wade through the layers of deception and delusions of the abuser, as well as your own, and perhaps, that of your family and friends.
When I suspected I was being emotionally abused it was at a time when NO ONE recognized verbal and emotional abuse as abuse. Certainly no one was acknowledging that you could be suffering from “battered wife syndrome” just from verbal or emotional abuse.
My advice to you, Anne, is TRUST yourself. Trust what YOU are feeling, what you think is going on. DO NOT believe ANYTHING this guy tells you.
Here are some books that helped me identify the abuse, the abuser, and my feelings:
The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans
Without A Conscience by Robert D. Hare
The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists by Eleanor Payson
In Sheep’s Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People by George K.Simon
Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman (explains how serious the trauma of abuse can be; why it can be life-threatening during the trauma and after it ends.)
Also, there’s some good websites that support people who think they have been with a pathological narcissist. One is on msn. called the web of narcissism.
Good luck. And keep posting.
Anne, I believe we both have spines…we just have to dig down back to where they got buried under all that &*^% from the relationships and straighten them and clean them off. Those guys offloaded their stuff unto us…we were optimistic, not negative like they are.
And I’m not a big fan of saying “Everything happens for a reason”. Instead, I prefer to say, “With work, bad experiences can turn out to be a good thing”.
Hi Seeif –
Thank you for your reply. I am going to look into the books you recommend. I am so relieved to hear you say that people around will “explain it away”. (!!!) So true.. I am hearing my mother say “Anne, he’s been single for so long – that you have to understand that it’s hard for him to learn to live with someone”. This is what she said when I told her about the time he flew into a rage a screamed at the top of his lungs ” I CAN’T TAKE THIS – I HAVE NO SPACE _-GET OUT OF WAY – JUST GET OUT!!!” And then he ran out of the house – got in his car -peeled rubber in the street and left me to freak out alone for two hours before he came back and said “Jesus Anne – you have to push push push – can’t you just let me settle down for a minute…why do you always have to know the reason for everything?”
And – as you said – its sprinkled with “I am so thankful to have you in my life.” comments every couple of months – just to keep me hopping.
So thank you Seeif. I am going to work now and have alot to think about. Mostly gathering some strength – and listening to my gut. I don’t know when I stopped feeling smart and beautiful….but it happened somewhere along my timeline with this bonehead. How long have you been out of your relationship? You are so insightful and kind and I hope you are happy.
Hi Serenity – I like that! It will be my mantra for the hours I am at work today. “With work – bad experiences can turn out to be a good thing.” It’s a different pespective and a new way to look at things. Thank you for your comments. I swear – you folks are lifesavers. I am so lucky I found this site!
The relationship that introduced me to Abuse 101 ended 17 years ago. That was my marriage. Because of that experience I discovered a new shelf of books at the bookstore. And it taught me a lot about listening to MY FEELINGS instead of the abuser’s words.
I wish I could say I learned everything I needed to know from the “recovery” I went through as the result of that marriage . Unfortunately, I had to learn ,again, about manipulation and emotional abuse in the relationship that brought me to GPYP. That relationship lasted 6 months, and ended 6 months ago. I’ve gone NC with him twice: the first time was 3 months long, right after the break up; the second time has been ineffect since December 19th last year. I got a Xmas card from him with the news that he was dating someone new. I contacted him the day after receiving the card, and told him I did not want to communicate with him, and to please not contact me in any way.( I wrote this note after consulting with Susan at GPYP.)
NC has been the single most healing part of getting over this past relationship. That and doing the grief work Susan @ GPYP suggests. Reading her posts and theses on grief and mourning have been invaluable in helping me zero in on WHY I was attracted and attractive to another potentially abusive partner.
Journaling, talking, and posting about loss and neglect early in my life helped me to understand –and hopefully not repeat — this pattern of abusive relationships. Not only in love relationships, but work relationships, too.
As for being happy, I’d say I have more happy days than unhappy days. I feel centered and I’m doing something that makes me feel alive. That something is art.
Whereas I came to this site because I had ended a relationship, I am discovering who I am and who I want to be, with or without a partner.
I’m glad Susan posted this topic under a separate post about abuse. I believe that recovering from abuse, being involved with an abuser is different from recovering from a break up with someone who is not an abuser.
Abuse has its own dynamic, cycles, and manipulations. And until you know what they are, it can be hard to see how traumatic it is. There is a special trauma bond between an abuser and his victim that is so insidious that until I understood what that bond was, I couldn’t get free.
I wish there were more therapists trained in treating abuse survivors — emotional as well as physical. Or at least more workshops on verbal and emotional abuse and the damage it causes. Many verbal abuse survivors don’t know that’s what they are going through. And stay believing there must be something they can say or do to stop the abuse. Of course, it’s like physical abuse, the only thing that changes is the frequency, intensity, or variety.
I believe most of us need some kind of therapy after going through abuse. Like alcoholism, it can take a long time to recovery from it. But it can be done.
Anne, it seems like you’re ahead of the game in that you recognize that your ex’s rage was harmful, so upsetting it took you 2 hours to recover from it. That rage IS abuse.
A lot of the recovery I got did come from reading books like The Verbally Abusive Relationship. It was very healing to be validated by Evans’ descriptions and examples of abuse, both overt and covert. Her number one kind of verbal/emotional was “witholding”. When I read that someone who is supposed to love you is being abusive because they don’t ever tell you they love you, that was sooooo validating. Or that witholding affection or talk to punish you was an intolerable form of abuse, I felt like someone lived in my reality… and that it was healthy and sane to expect my lover/husband to engage me conversation or show affection — on a regular basis.
From what you’ve described, your perceptions of your ex’s behavior are right on. Evans says to listen to YOUR feelings, pay attention to how YOU’RE feeling when the abuser tells you something. DO NOT not listen to his or her words. Listen to your feelings. They will guide you.
And… she does say that having no contact with the abuser is ultimately necessary to heal completely.
Thanks for posting…and keep posting.
Your post helps me to remember what I need to remember.
Take care.
Seeif
Hi Seeif –
I am reading the Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists. Thanks for the suggestion. It’s such a relief to see that the behavior has a name! I now will do what I need to do in order to become more aware, as well as figure out (with my therapist) where I am coming from and why. The only thing I don’t like about the book is that she talks about reconcilliation and therapy with the NPD. I cannot see how hope can enter into such a situation. Otherwise – feeling a bit blue and guilty (??!!) but trying to sit through the anxiety. Again – thanks for the reading!
Anne
Really? Therapy and reconcilliation with an NPD? Good luck with that one. Sounds like a dangerous concept.
Seeif, I hear you about the trauma bonds.. but I have a question.. for anyone really.. my ex, who dumped me for someone else.. talked intriguigingly about the ‘wheel of trauma’ between us and ‘wanted out of the sad cycle we had got ourselves into’.. yet I was abused and recognise it now as such.. His line I guess is that he was doing me a favour to get out of the relationship (only to be in another one 3 weeks later!) but as he did not care about my feelings in the relationship, why would he suddenly be all heroic and pull the ‘you are better off without scum like me in your life’..
for the record has never apologised.. but says he has ‘learnt many lessons’ from our time together.. He says its all different with his new love
I feel doubly abused.. by him in the realtionship his withholding cruel and nasty behaviour and then being dumped and told he knew he was abusing me (hence the wheel of trauma?)
Of course he blames me for everything.. I made him that way and she doesn’t?
Any light shed?
I’m having a hard day today.. sundays it creeps up on me.. He and I will never talk again and that feels so final and awful and yes.. NC.. but
Abby
Abby, I know what you mean about days of the week! On Saturday mornings I always had to get my fix.
Here’s my musings as to the answer about “why would he suddenly be all heroic…?” I would guess two things: that perhaps this is because there are very few people that have all-selfish or all-unselfish behaviors, and this was one true unselfish behavior he could exhibit— then there’s the second, in order to look good, he used the “I am saving you from me” facade.
Either way, few people are totally demons (didn’t a lot of these megalomaniacs love their mothers?) or angels (though thankfully there’s a weighted side that most people come out on). I would say that if he was aware enough of how he was traumatizing you, yet continuing in the relationship for a significant time, he was making very selfish choices. Then near the end, when he wanted to go, he could bring out his understanding of what a jerk he was to gild his departure and leave you thinking that a knight rode away.
The dance he’s doing with the next person may be different than yours. But it doesn’t matter doesn’t matter doesn’t matter. Only you do. I know how fascinating it is to keep going down that “what’s going on” track. Rest assured that it’s probably just as nastily unhealthy and unfortunately for them probably an experience that will “make their worlds smaller” as sussan says. And then forget it, who cares? back to you.
It sounds as if your world is getting bigger, and you’re going to be doing a different dance in the future. That’s my hope for myself too.
Good luck with the tango! Once you get over your melancholy, try the samba! It’s like being on an amusement park ride.
Thanks so much Serenity! I appreciate your response I really do.. He did nothing ‘post break up’ that was heroic or nice. He refused to talk to me speak to me and YET continued to see fit to ring my mother to ask if he could stay with her (in London as he does a course there) AND continue to come the yoga studio I own, despite my having asked him “please dont’ do this, I need to heal”
Yes, the final blow was KNOWING that he knew what a jerk he was… and somehow twisting it to make himself look the noble and good one..
My world is getting bigger.. but on Sunday’s cooking lunch alone for me.. and thinkig hey, I used to love cooking it for him! and wondering wondering
Doesn’t matter doesn’t matter…
I will try Samba!
Ole!
Abbyx
Abby,
Because. Because because because because. It’s what they DO. And no matter how much we plow it up and turn it over and look for answers that make sense, to our sensibilities, there just can’t be one, except that’s the way it is. Trying to figure it out beyond labeling it what it is and going on is the ticket to madness, and that’s the trip we don’t want, or need, to take.
They’re changlings. And charming ones, at that. They can turn it on and turn it off, and turn on you. And blaming is much easier than taking responsibility, FOR REAL, because it would necessitate them going deep, and actually doing some digging of their own, and DOING THE WORK, instead of just doing it again with the next victim. So yes, we’re left with the pain, the memories, the getting on with it all, except that we choose to find a different way to live our lives. Not easy, not easy at all, but better in the long run. I know I sound like I’m “blaming,” too, and I cop to it. I did my time as the Victim, but chose to stop short of Martyrdom. And yes, I still have my Garbage Days of Recycling, but I have the knowledge that it is what it is, and the belief that it will pass.
I would even get apologies for his being a jerk, (or maybe he thought that such a profound admission was equal to an apology), but after a while the repeated syndrome of jerkiness began to trump the swellness. No longer was the jerk part some aberration, but truly part of the package. And if they are “doing the noble thing” to remove themselves to save us, well, more the better for their own press, and you have to wonder, (don’t we always still wonder, till we don’t anymore) if they can possibly believe their own stuff. Don’t forget that while they are accomplished liars, they are so accomplished that they believe their own stuff. Otherwise, how could they keep going on? That’s why they keep moving on, because they need a new, ignorant audience. After a while, the old gang knows of what they are made. Or else they surround themselves with a “support group” that you certainly wouldn’t want to be a part of anyway. Bottomfeeders, you might say.
Yeah, I still sound a little bitter. It hurts. It’s still new enough, and I’m still healing, too. And there are days when I fall backwards in to the question pit and still mouth the words and wonder why why why, and after a while I gather myself up from the time wasting and get on with the rest of my life. And you will, too. There’s LIFE out there, and loving people, and friends who care, and the folks in this group that understand, when so many others can’t. That’s why we’re all here.
A lot of this journey is about Faith, especially in ourselves. As we know what we had to offer them, just remember that we can turn that around and offer it to ourselves, and to the people in our lives who really matter. What a concept. Another platitude: Hang in there. After a while there will come a peace, and a commitment, to ourselves, to keep moving on and giving to ourselves, and being worthy of our own love. Like the commercial said, We are worth it. Perhaps even “they” knew they weren’t, in their own hearts, despite their lies, and it’s easier for them to push away the “cause” of their discomfort, than deal with the consequences. Questions, questions, questions, and here’s the perfect example of how I’d be better served by going and cleaning my house or doing my art than to be chasing the white rabbit down the hole again.
I hope you have a special Sunday. Do something good for yourself. And mark another day off that you’ve survived. After a while you’ll have moved off dead center and find you’ve become a functioning, contributing, loving human being. Which, in the end, is a far better future than all of “them” will ever have. Poor them. And good for us.
Thank you Lexi… and everyone.. I feel it reallyl bad today.. for the first time in a long time..( that bloody Amy Winehouse! )
I made my special lunch just for me and am going to watch a movie and cuddle up with my cat
I am always sidewinded when I meet or talk to someone that has had contact wtih him.. Today I practiced yoga with a lovely girl who saw them also last year.. and told me all about that.. the whole thing just reared up in my face again.. How could he leave me.. who loved him so much for someone else.. and lie about it again and again to my friend it was perfectly obvious he had been seeing someone else for some time.. I can’t even frame that in my mind now.. that last year while he was recovering from serious illness and saying how much he loved me and how I had comitted to him during that time.. that he was essentially and silently making his escape route… with her..
I wish her no ill really.. I just hope she realises.. sooner rather than later
Anyway.. on with the rest of Sunday..
thanks again to you both…. support is so important.. and you are right.. ther eis no one else that can understand better than those who know of which we speak
Sadly, Abbyxx
Anne,
Yes, I was definitely thrown by the second half of The Wizard of Oz: the how to do therapy and reconcile with someone who has Narcissistic Personality Disorder(NPD). I disagree. Virtually everything I’ve read about NPD says the exact opposite. If you think about it, if lack of empathy is one of the core, unchangeable characteristics of NPD, which I understand it is — then, how could someone change through therapy. In my experience, when two people are doing therapy to work out differences or pain between them, the very minimum these people need is the ABILITY to feel or to understand the feelings, needs, perspective of other people. But especially those of the other partner.
When I was in relationship with my ex, who demonstrated a lack of empathy toward me, as well other friends or acquaintances, over and over again, it took a long time for it to sink in: that he just didn’t have it(empathy) and he probably never would. It wasn’t just that he couldn’t “feel what I was feeling” it was that he couldn’t see me as a human being who had feelings. Period. So when he said or did cruel things or was indifferent to my pain, it didn’t register. I was a brick wall that he bounced the ball of his actions against. And walls, of course, do not feel. I was seen as an inanimate object, a reflective surface,to be used to reflect him back to himself. I had to learn that he did not see me an impressionable, flesh and blood human being, who would would feel and sustain the painful imprints of his indifferent and cruel remarks and behavior.
It’s my understanding that expecting someone with traits like these to become empathetic and to feel remorse is like expecting a fish out of water to grow legs and walk on down the road. It’s not going to happen.
And I don’t know about others who were with this type of person, but it took me a long time to grasp this: that I was an inanimate object to this person. And in many ways I simply didn’t exist for him, as anything other than an extension of him. That’s what was SO shocking, SO incomprehensible, about all this!
Anne, in another post I warned about this section(about therapy and reconciliation) in The Wizard of Oz. I DO NOT disagree with this supposition. In fact, based on what she says in the first half of the book, it seemed like she did a complete 180 in the second half.
However, what I found useful was the author’s description of the different behaviors in the first half; different behaviors that suggest NPD.
I also recommended another book, “In Sheep’s Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People,” by George K. Simon. The author is consistent throughout the book. Also, he describes what he calls “covert aggression” in the behaviors of people who may or may not have NPD. But he’s very clear that it’s very destructive behavior and that it DOES NOT change. He’s very concerned with how harmful these behaviors are to people who interact with them, whether in love relationships, work relationships, or otherwise. And… it validates for the reader that the person who perpetrates these behaviors CAN and DOES hoodwink not only the victims, but the support system around the victims, including therapists. Many therapists aren’t trained to see that there are people, like people with NPD, who use people and are ruthless. And will not change, cannot change in therapy. There are those people: people who are incapable of change.
In any case, the best thing about In Sheep’s Clothing is that it validates how devastating it is to be in a relationship –of any kind — with these deceptive and manipulative people. He addresses the victims of the perpetrators of these behaviors. He says the same thing that everyone else who deals with survivors of abuse says: he says to GET OUT and STAY OUT. But says that if you must be around these people, at work, or in coparenting, you WILL need strategies to take care of YOURSELF to protect yourself from the toxicity of these covert and crazymaking behaviors. He makes it clear that you are pretty much dancing with the devil.
Anne, if you get a chance, you might read In Sheep’s Clothing. It was more helpful for what to do around a manipulating and NPD person.
I read as much as I could about this. What may help one person may not necessarily be enough to help another.
As I read I would ask , “Does this ring true, FOR ME?”
Take care.
Seeif
Wow. I first just have to say how TRULY grateful I am to have found this site. For several years now, I have been feeling like I must be the only person going through a situation like this, and it’s seriously such a relief to know that other people are going through the same thing.
I had been dating this emotionally abusive guy for almost four years, and there had been multiple times when I tried to leave. As soon as he saw that I wasn’t going to deal with his crap anymore, he’d get a classic case of “abuser’s remorse” and I’d always let him creep back into my life somehow. Looking back on it, I can see how I was addicted to the relationship. I don’t know how or when it happened, but I would get used to the cycle of highs and lows and drama…and when I tried to get away from it all, there was a kind of withdrawal I went through…
The part I get most angry about it that I didn’t see him for who he was earlier on. I feel like I wasted so much time on him; when I saw he was an a**hole, why didn’t I just leave and never look back? He was really good at manipulating the situation, and I can COMPLETELY relate to what everyone else has been saying. The rules were constantly changing; I would try everything just to keep him happy, so he wouldn’t go off the deep end – but nothing was right. He would be adamant about how something should be done one day, then completely switch his position and get mad at me for doing it the way he originally said he wanted it done. He was completely psycho. He would put me down and say I wasn’t good at this or that (cooking food, cleaning up around the house, showing affection!@??) so as a result, I tried harder and harder to SHOW him that I WAS good at all of these things. It was nuts. I found myself, as many of you did, walking on eggshells and biting my tongue to avoid conflict. I lost myself somewhere along the way. I didn’t feel I could truly share my opinion anymore…or really be myself. It was really pathetic…b/c I had always had a strong sense of who I was – but he was somehow able to break that down..by slowly chipping away at it without me even realizing it. I think the hardest part was that he totally swept me off of my feet in the beginning, and it was such a rush…that I couldn’t understand how this sweet, perfect guy was treating me this way -calling me terrible names, criticizing EVERY little thing about me, treating me as inferior. I couldn’t, for the longest time, understand that that was who he really was. He wasn’t going to suddenly realize how hard I had been trying, or how much I cared, or what as a**hole he was being (although in times of remorse, he would admit to being one). I finally got it through myhead that he would never change; that was a side of him that was genuinely there and not about to leave. My sister told me something once ( I think she heard it on Oprah, lol) but it really made a difference. She said, “When someone shows you who they really are, believe it.”And that’s what I had to do. I finally have stopped wondering why why why? Or..what could I have done differently…how could I have helped him change…It doesn’t matter! I am SO MUCH better off without him. I only wish I’d seen this sooner. The key for me was physically removing myself from the situation and avoiding all contact with him. I picked up a few books to help me along the way as well. While I’m still in the recovering phase, I know this time it will stick b/c I’ll never let anyone treat me that way again. It’s not even an option. Each day, I feel stronger -I still get sad (mostly thinking about the wasted time) – but it always passes relatively quickly.
Anyways, I didn’t mean to write such a long post -I got a little carried away :) – but I just wanted to let everyone know that I know exactly what you’re going through, and that it’s entirely possible to move on and get your life back. Good luck to everyone..stay strong out there. :)
My UNEQUIVOCAL advice would be to leave an person with NPD and NEVER EVER look back. To do anything else is stupid and dangerous. Now I have to read this book and do a post on it because it sounds ridiculously WRONG to me.
Beth,
Excellent, excellent post. (You too, Seeif.) Congratulations on your enlightenment and moving on! While it’s the diploma we never wanted from the college we never wanted to attend, it’s still to be honored. You’ve told a magnificent story, one that so many can relate to, and isn’t it a shame? But we learn what we learn when we learn it, and then like Susan did and does, it becomes part of our experience to be able to pass it on. I am continually amazed by so many of the contributions in this community. Such articulate and wise words, and the wisdom of experience. And the fact that we can see so much of ourselves in the lives of others, no matter what stage of the journey we and they are in.
It’s a privilege to share cyberspace with all of you.
I meant to say I do not AGREE with the supposition that with therapy a person with NPD can change or work things out with his or her partner. I believe the opposite. I believe Payson is wrong in what she says in the second half of The Wizard of Oz.
Sorry for the typos.
Seeif
Abby,
One of the things the grief workshop handbook (I recommend it all!) says is that loss is at its basic definition the loss of a behavior…certainly a weekend qualifies as that. So it was *us* that made it special by our feelings and care for those people who we now know were undeserving of those special privileges. We need to reclaim that time and that behavior. I want to look forward to my Saturdays again, and I wish you supreme serenity and comfort on Sundays.
- Serenity
Serenity
thank you. Yes its the loss… the times that were good.. Thinking how unfair it all seems sometimes.. he skipped off happily into a new, better sunset and I have been mourning and grieving… but at least growing..
Its Monday now! onward with the week
I thank you
Abbyx
Good Morning Everyone –
Thank you for your comments Seeif – I am going to absolutely find a copy of In Sheep’s Clothing. I just feel such relief knowing that I am not crazy! And that my ex’s behavior is written about and talked about – especially here – I appreciate all of you so much – thank you for sharing your experiences.
I want to tell you what happened last night and see if anyone has any comments becasue I don’t know if I should do anything about it. A bit of background is that I moved to my current city to live with Mr. NPD. Most of my social life revolved around his social life. Now that we are not together – I have been going out with some new people and making an effort to find my own peeps. Well – last night I was on my way to dinner to meet a new friend and while I was driving there – the phone rang and it was my ex! Is he telepathic? Anyway – the message he left (and I did NOT respond to) was something along the lines of “Hi Hon. I just wanted to let you know that I have an appointment tomorrow morning to see the chief of psychiatry at the hospital…he was nice enough to rearrange his schedule to fit me in at 8:30 in the morning. So – I want you to know that I appreciate your help in getting me on this path – even though it is really difficult. I hope we can talk soon.”
I almost called him this morning – but I logged on here instead.
Is this manipulative?
Whan I listened to the message – all I could think of was WOW – he is so special that he gets to see the head of the department that rearranged his schedule just to accomodate the special special man.
Sorry for the bitter tone – but I am TIRED. And I had such a fun dinner last night that I don’t want to ruin it. Kind of like drinking orange juice after brushing your teeth!
Thanks for the vent – the urge to call has passed.
Anne
NPD=NC
Completely.
I love the orange juice after brushing your teeth analogy…EWWWW!!!!!
Abby,
My ex has done the same, and I’m with you on how unfair it is that we should be thrown into grief for something we took so much care about and considered so valuable and special…Of course, we can imagine how everything is butterflies and flowers for them, but the truth is that we were not the only unhealthy ones in those relationships, and there are not going to be healthy people who choose to be with them now. Who cares? Whatever. They are their own problems now and *they* own them.
I’m with my sister this week and we’re getting to the end of one cycle of working through the Grief Recovery Handbook. Thinking that you sound so much like me, you really might look into doing it for yourself. I’m feeling somewhat better already, although it’s hard. Susan says that often a lot of our grief is not from our latest breakup and loss, but from other losses (and they accumulate like a big snowball), and I have to say that now I really understand it to be true, having gone through part of a workshop cycle. My sister and I cried as we worked through part of it last night, and then I had vivid dreams last night (probably when you were blogging- yikes- early morning again, hmm?). But one understanding I had when I woke up in the middle of the night was that everything was inevitable and unchangeable- the choices I made, the choices he made, who he was, who I was—and going down in flames was the only option. There’s actually some peace in that understanding.
serenity
Anne- can you get a new sim card and change your phone numbers? Changing my phone number was one of the most stress-relieving things I did.
p.s. abby, I hope he’s still not coming to your studio–as proprietor, I believe you can say “sorry, you’re no longer welcome as a customer” can’t you…if he is still coming, I bet susan knows the answer as to whether one can turn a troublesome other away as a customer…
Anne: I’m keeping the eye on the ball — my recovery. What my ex does is “none of my business”. When someone is a covert aggressor, everything is about winning, trumping the other: it’s all manipulation. Their continual manipulation of me and others is predictable. It’s the one thing I’ve learned I can count on: they will continue to manipulate me to get what they want. Even if it’s to reel me back in for a second… to satisfy some whim they’re having. Like craving a candybar or a bag of potato chips, a whim that is just one whim among many. And I’ve learned it has nothing to do with me, or wanting me, or caring about me.
Harsh as this sounds, this what I’ve come to understand about Ns.
Glad you had FUN last night. Isn’t that wonderful? You had fun.
You go girl.
Seeif
I just wanted to say that you are all such an inspiration to me. Sometimes, reading the posts, I feel as if we all dated the same man. I thought he was unique and special and that somehow HE was genuine, and yet all of this sounds so familiar. This has helped me so very much today, and I am hopeful that this week will be a better one – as I will make it a better one. Thank you for sharing all your experiences! It truly helps so very much.
I hope that everyone has a wonderful day and week! I will because of you!
Anne,
Don’t drink the juice! :)
I think you are making the absolute right decision by not contacting him in any way. I encountered similar situations every time I tried to leave my ex; he would call to “check in,” or leave a note for me somewhere, or try to initiate contact in some way. It was his way of inching back into my life bit by bit. Once I responded to a text message, or voicemail, or any kind of contact, he saw this as an opportunity to push in even more. The truth is, there’s no reason to be talking to him for a long time…and it sounds like you’re out there meeting people and making a new start for yourself, which is awesome.
Changing your number is a great way to get your mind off whether it’s him when the phone rings. I used to wonder that every time the phone would ring…and then when I would listen to his voicemail, my heart was racing out of my chest. So much unnecessary drama.
So…stay strong- you’re doing the right thing! Remember that. :)
Thank you all for your support. I really really appreciate it – because here I am at sunset feeling a little guilty for going out – can you believe it!!?? I did not call today and Beth – you are SO right about the heart jumping feeling of stress. I think that if the situation I was in wasn’t somewhat abusive I wouldn’t feel like this – would I? And I say “somewhat” because it was so subtle that before I knew it – 3 years had passed and I was not the same person I was when we started. But Susan is correct i n saying abusive is abuse is abuse is abuse! He has so many of the NPD traits (sense of entitlement, rage bursts when questioned etc.) but put on such a show. It makes me so mad that I am sitting here feeling guilty for going out and questioning the reality of the situation. Seriously – why can’t I “get it”? I won’t drink the juice!
And Seeif – you rock! Thanks for the frank words. What an accomplishment to be able to see so clearly. That’s my goal. To “get it”.
Thank you all for your support. I really really appreciate it – because here I am at sunset feeling a little guilty for going out – can you believe it!!?? I did not call today and Beth – you are SO right about the heart jumping feeling of stress. I think that if the situation I was in wasn’t somewhat abusive I wouldn’t feel like this – would I? And I say “somewhat” because it was so subtle that before I knew it – 3 years had passed and I was not the same person I was when we started. But Susan is correct i n saying abusive is abuse is abuse is abuse! He has so many of the NPD traits (sense of entitlement, rage bursts when questioned etc.) but put on such a show. It makes me so mad that I am sitting here feeling guilty for going out and questioning the reality of the situation. Seriously – why can’t I “get it”? I won’t drink the juice!
And Seeif – you rock! Thanks for the frank words. What an accomplishment to be able to see so clearly. That’s my goal. To “get it”.
Anne,
You’re getting it…you are.
Hey everyone
I just discovered this site and find it so beneficial!!
I have also read The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists – at first I thought the author stated the same thing that all of you are thinking that she meant. I have re-read it a few times and what I think that she meant was this: that if someone has just narcissitic traits and not the full blown disorder of NPD, there may be a chance of reconciliation with therapy – depending on where the person is on the narcissistic continuum and motivation for change. I agree that she does not make this very clear if this is indeed what she meant.
Welcome Cheryl!!! I ordered the book today. I’m going to read i t carefully. Glad you are here!
Another good book is, Why is it Always About You – the Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism. This book is, I believe, much more realistic about there not being hope for change.
Susangpyp
Thanks so much for the welcome!
Cheryl,
I do remember that she made a distinction between someone with narcissistic traits and someone with a full blown disorder. However, given the difficulty trained professionals have diagnosing NPD, and the different and convincing masks Ns wear I still feel the author of TWOO is playing with fire in that section of her book. It plays right into the mind games Ns play with their targeted victims. I, for one, am not buying what the author says about the distinctions.
Welcome to the board.
Seeif
Thanks for your welcome as well, Seeif
I agree that she is playing with fire. Someone reading the book probably would come away with more hope than they definitely should have – after reading that section – and stay stuck in an abusive situation (an abusive situation is an abusive situation, no matter what distinction is being made).
I am recently divorced after a 20 year marriage. My ex left me for his affair partner, whom he had set up in a house (as well as her kids) in another state and lived there with them during the last year of our marriage – and hid all of this from me and our children. We were in different states due to our daughter was a talented figure skater, and she was invited to train at a prestigious facility in another state. While we were having some marital problems, I trusted him when he said that he wanted to work on our marriage and move to be with us (his family is in the vicinity). He deliberately deceived us (he said this as he was moving her and her children in). He left me in a ton of debt because he was supporting two families without my knowledge (though he blamed me for all the financial problems). When he decided he no longer wanted to pay for my daughter’s expensive training – he started getting on her about her weight, saying things like if she did not lose 20 pounds in two months he would stop paying for her skating (she was going through puberty but was not overweight) – she eventually had a breakdown and quit skating on her own (most of all this was going on without my knowledge) and as soon as she quit skating, his affair partner’s husband filed for a divorce and then he asked me for one (within 2 weeks of her quitting skating). To this day, if my daughter tries to talk to him about this, he just says to her that it is her fault that she quit skating and just as well because she wasn’t doing what she was suppose to in order to control her weight anyway.
My ex is a very well liked and respected clinical psychologist. When I look back over our many years together, I now realize that I was the victim of some very skilled covert abuse. I can honestly say that every once in a while, I had the nagging feeling that something was not quite right – but I ignored it or he was able to convince me that I was not seeing the situation correctly, etc. Because he was so convincingly caring with his patients, I honestly did not think that he was abusive – and his abuse was, once again, subtle, covert and under the radar manipulative.
My daughter is in therapy and very quickly her therapist said, “he sounds like he is a narcissist” (not to my daughter – to me). I had no idea until after the divorce process was started and I hired a private investigator to get at the truth – then it still took awhile for me to find out exactly what I was really dealing with.
There are many other horrific examples of the abuse that not only me, but my children as well, have suffered – both throughout our marriage (most that I am just now realising in retrospect as lies are being revealed) and especially during the last few years as the marriage was breaking down.
You are right – those with NPD are masters at mind games — And, I am not sure that there is truly a more sinister person – someone with NPD who is also a psychologist.
Seeif and everyone,
Thanks so much for these posts! I would say you don’t know what they mean to me, but the great thing is that you do! (-; I was in a relationship with this exact same personality you’ve described so well and have felt so alone, so less than, as I struggle to overcome the legacy of self-doubt he left me, and so foolish not to have seen sooner what was happening. The biggest red flag I somehow managed to ignore (for ages, it seems) was that he was totally unaffected by my crying (I don’t do it that often and if I do, it’s for a good reason) and would even brag about that. Just sat there like a stone mountain turner colder and colder by the minute. If I think back (feel back?) on it, it was one of the most frightening things I’ve ever encountered: just that total lack of humanity toward someone he professed to love. I don’t know how anyone could behave that way toward a total stranger. And I, too, have beaten myself up for allowing myself to be mistreated because everything was subtle and emotional-psychological, not (in my case) physical (I, too, could do nothing right and ended up with so much internalized cruelty to try to fight against). So just thank you so much, all of you!, for helping me find the name for this. And for the book titles. I will read up, and hopefully this will help me forgive myself for not being in my own corner.
Good thoughts to everybody tonight. You’re amazing people!
Its so weird.. my ex could be the same person you are talking about .. My ex would be ‘angry’ if I cried and showed no sympathy or empathy.. I would get so frustrated and feel so lonely sometimes I would cry myself to sleep in my house (up in the loft room) occasioinally he would mutter “shut up!” and seemed more concerned with my son ‘hearing’ his mother cry rather than actually STOPPING the behaviour that made me cry in the first place (mind games, silent treatment, etc etc)
The way he ended with me.. told me I was making it up when I was so OBVIOULSY sick (puking etc, yuck sorry) and told me to ‘go to my mother’s as he ‘couldn’t look after ‘ me.. all points to this type of personality
Very odd as he actually WORKS with people with PD’s.. in a secure hospital.. Guess he is an ideal person not feeling and not getting emotionally involved hey?
I do know a lot more about these disordered people than I would like to now (having taken that involuntary crash course of psychology 101) and have realised they are all around! I get a fair few coming through my doors as a teacher and have learnt to read the signs. Here are some of them
1. Always over friendly to start
2. Sharing information v quickly
3. Seeming to hang on your every word.. but there is an agenda!
4. Beware of people who want to ‘help’ you for no apparent reason (had a student who did this v quickly and then turned into a stalker psycho)
My ex came in under my radar.. he presented initially as a very soft spoken ‘gentle giant’ who seemed to adore me and worship my every word. He often seemed too shy to speak in my company and was an ‘ideal student’ comittted and seemingly respectful
Fast forward to him emotionally abusing me, placing me in no win situations.. constantly exiting the relationship and then coming back.. hanging up on me when I was trying to talk through our problems (whoops mean his problems) etc… I hadn’t changed.. I was still the same woman he (apparently) fell in love. Its just once he had me where he wanted me (in love and vulnerable) he attacked on all fronts. I used to have tearful conversations with his sister who told me he was ‘high maintainance’ and hinted time and time again that she had first hand knowledge of his difficult personality. She urged me to leave him and ‘give him a taste of his own mediine” His mother too, apologised to me once on his behalf after he shouted at me in front of her (I was round there while he was ill, giving him moral support!)
I read Scott Peck;s People of The Lie.. It shed a lot of light
Beware and take care
Abby (sorry for ranting, too much coffee this am!)
Bluebird: you described my ex exactly with the crying thing…I had never met anyone who could see someone obviously upset (and I’m not an “easy” crier either, but even if I were..) and be so cold about it. The same thing happened to me – it would enrage him to see me cry. That’s such an insane reaction….so scary. Zero empathy. I ended up feeling so alone all the time. Even after he would fall asleep, I’d be lying there feeling so lonely. I ended up hiding it whenever I felt upset, but some times I couldn’t keep it hidden.
Like Lexi said, it’s the diploma we never wanted from the college we never wanted to attend,..but at least now we see things are they really were.
Here’s to today being a “good” day for everyone… :)
Abby- where were those warning signs three years ago when I needed them?? :-D
My ex was OVERLY friendly at first – went out of his way to open doors for me (we worked together), say hello, ask me about myself. At the time, I did think it was odd since I barely knew this person, but I suppose I was flattered. And yes, he seemed to hang onto my every word. He definitely has a facade that he shows most of the world, but once you get to know him, it’s quite a different story. Sadly, that will never change.. Oh well – good riddance. :)
It pains me to know that other people are going through the same thing, or have. It is scary how a like my ex is to what you have described above. I thought I was just being too emotional. I would cry in bed and he literally turned so his back was facing me (mind you how mad he would get after breaking up with me and insisting that we live only as roommates and I would sleep in another room). I couldn’t take it one night and asked how he could have turned into such a monster. He would always use my tears against me, as reason why he didn’t want to be with me.. saying “well, I thought we were doing good until now..” and just making me bear the responsibility of all the pain that i was experiencing and also the break up. I was already alone, in a place I knew no one but him and was not familiar – it was such a horrible experience that most people do not understand. And the scariest part is that he is studying to be a psychologist!! I am so thankful to you all for sharing your stories, it truly helps me to see that I wasn’t wrong or crazy, or unreasonable, that I was victimized and that I shouldn’t blame myself, question myself, etc.
Hope, Beth and EVERYONE ELSE who has described this emotionless, cruel and personality disordered individual. I thank you too because yes, I thought it was me and I was too emotional (my ex actually used to shake his head and say with disdain that his sister was a ‘very emotional person’ – which basically translates as HE USED TO MAKE HER CRY!!!)
These people are bad bad news.. Surround yourself with people who dont make you feel mad and who help you to be your best and most amazing self. I know since I did a ‘cull from my life, got some self esteem and showed up most days just doing what I know to be ‘good’ stuff.. that good stuff has followed..
Yes I have these awful days and moments where I just CANNOT understand what happened to me BUT it did and now its over and THANK GOD…
Keep on keeping on my friends!
Abbyx
whoops meant to say above ” a cull of the PDI’s…
Happy Tuesday!
Ax
Whoops missed Serenity’s post up there! Thank so much..I will look into the grief handbook I really will
He is not coming.. he left last year, when I threw ALL of the PDI’s out! But, I’ve recently started up teaching the class he was coming too so who knows, MR UNSENSITIVE may well show up again as if nothing has happened.. If he does, it almost would be too sweet as it would validate EVERYTHING I’ve posted on here.. and yes, I would take great pleasure in saying ‘no”
To all out there.. take care.. keep reading keep posting.. It’s been so helpful to me.. I cant tell you
Serenity, thanks again
Abbyx
And one of the major reasons I stayed and gave all that I could was because of how much he loved me. Everyone told me that he adored me and I truly felt like I had found what I had deserved. And, then I watched him turn into something I never would have associated with, and I felt it was my fault… that I made him stop loving me, that I ruined it somehow. While I know it is unhealthy thinking, and my mind is more rational, my heart can’t seem to catch up.
Cheryl,
What you and your daughter have been through sounds devastating. And, yes, I agree there is nothing more sinister than an N who is entrusted with the care of such vulnerable human beings. One of my stepfathers was a psychiatrist and I believe he had NPD. My mother was one of EIGHT wives he had. Long after my mother divorced him( because he told her,while she was pregnant with my sister, that he was having an affair with a former patient), he was apparently sued by two OTHER patients for medical malpractice; for having sex with them DURING their therapy with him. I think he lost one suit and paid a settlement;and, the other one was dismissed or was ruled in his favor. And, wouldn’t you know, he was allowed to continue his private practice with subsequent patients. In addition to his private practice, he oversaw all involuntary admissions of patients with serious mental illness to state residential in-patient programs, in the state where we lived. He kept that position, too, after the medical malpractice suits.
What’s chilling for me, even now, understanding what “cons” Ns are( that they are people who can or could convince people that the world is flat), is remembering what I thought about him when my mother was married to him. I remember liking him and thinking he was “a nice guy.” Of course, I had no idea what he was doing to my mother, until many years later.
I can only imagine how difficult this has been for you and your daughter. There are books about what it’s like to be the child of a N. If you haven’t read any already, you might try a couple. It’s really a whole different ballgame to be a child of an N. Especially, if you didn’t know it as a child. I compare my recovery from it like being in a cult, and being deprogrammed.
Recovery from being involved with a N, and the child of a N, has been the most difficult and confusing part of my recovery. Reading Robert Hare’s book, Without a Conscience, about psychopathy/sociopathy was the most eyeopening book I’ve read, about the insidiousness of what he calls “socialized psychopaths”. Once I got past my stereotype of psychopaths; read about socialized sociopaths, who are often regarded as upstanding citizens;and, who are ministers, doctors, judges, CEOs, teachers,etc. I understood what I had come up against in my life as a child and an adult.
I don’t fault myself or anyone else for not seeing red flags with these people. Their ability to deceive and charm is how they “con” really intelligent and savvy people, really whole systems. Without a Conscience emphasizes this point well. Ns and/or sociopaths can con ANYONE, even seasoned professionals whose expertise is in detecting psychopathy.
Here’s how I see it, Cheryl, you know the truth now. And you are way ahead of most people. And knowing these truths will protect us. You can trust what you know.
I related to everything in your post, especially the disbelief that ANY human being could do these things to another. And, then, convince the others that they are to blame.
Thank you so much for your post.
I hope you’re taking good care of yourself.
Seeif
to all posting on this thread.. I really value what you have said.. its so helpful
peace and love
Abbyx
Thanks, Beth. It’s such a relief to know i’m not the only one (you do begin to believe their behavior is normal after a while and that you must be the problem), and yet it’s too sad that everyone here has had to feel that level of loneliness. Here’s to never letting that happen to us again. I don’t think we will–we know so much more than we did then.
I remember describing a scene with my ex to a close friend and being surprised that she was furious at him and immediately said he had no right to hurt my feelings that way and that he did not deserve another chance. I would have reacted the same way for her, but I’d been pulled so far into the game with him that I’d just come to accept the unacceptable on a regular basis. I think that’s one of the great gifts of NC: just the chance to step back and get a look at the dynamic, not something you can do when you’re embroiled in all the drama. It’s as if your (normal and good!) feelings of love for the person are constantly being used against you, blinding you to just the things you most need to see.
But I’m so glad for everyone here, not that we had to be hurt to find our way, but that, even if we went about it clumsily at first, not knowing what we might find, and afraid we might end up with nothing, we kept looking—for information, for strategies, for support, for good people (friends as well as lovers) who could love us back. Some days it feels like a miracle to still be here. (-; It feels like we’re transforming our sadness into something beautiful, something shared. Thanks, you guys!
Beth
It’s hard to now picture myself (ourselves) in some of the situations I was in back then.. One that sticks in my mind (and when described to a friend got the same reaction) my x and I had argued over somthing stupid (as always) but we were due to go o a big festival (where I was teaching) and I was desperate to ‘make up’ because my son was coming and because, well you know I didn’t want to have a ‘mood’ and have it spoil the weekend.. Did Mr moody want to ‘make up’ no!!!!!!!!!!!!! of course he didn’t.. He said ” I wont’ make up with you but I will drive you there” and stupid me.. of course.. accepted this ‘crumb’ and let him drive me and my son there.. me crying all the way silence from him…my son in the back…
I remember putting my hand on his knee and (in tears) saying do you still love me? and IN FRONT OF MY SON he said NO!
He ruined the rest of the festival sulking and NOT making it up with me.. and like a fool ‘I ran around after him (when I wasn’t teaching and looking after my son) and tried to figure out a way to make it better
To my credit I did say I woulnd’t camp with him and moved me and son down the hill to be with friends.. I was miserable the whole festival and realised (only quite recently) that he was JEALOUS of my success and that I was actually teaching there not just a punter.. oh yes
But why I allowed him to torture me and my child, I can’t figure that one out
I agree about the normal good feelings being usd against you
he often cited ‘my behaviour’ as reasons that he was bent out of shape.. my ‘behaviour’ usually being asking for him to not be cruel or careless with my feelings and crying if he was….
Guess he’s found someone more resiliant
Good luck!
Ax
I am so sad and scared because all my memories of us fighting was me. He never wanted to deal with issues and or problems and would just shirk them off, and I am not like that. I do not dwell on problems but I do seek to resolve them and if my feelings are hurt I can’t just dust my shoulder off. I remember one time in particular we were also at a fair, an ice cream festival actually, and they made sure to tell us countless times NOT to lose our spoon. Well, I wound up dropping mine twice on the ground and throwing it away once! haha! I thought it was funny, and just was like “Oh man, not again” and he acted like I was about to have a break down of some sort and said “relax” in this way that really hurt me. He always made me feel like a total monster. I am pretty sure I almost ruined that day because I had asked him to take me home and he went so far as to literally beg me to stay and try to have fun – but when someone makes you feel horrible about yourself for no good reason, how do you just let it roll of your back?
I have a difficult time with these memories because if he would have just taken some time to understand where i was coming from at all, or just not be so consumed in his own thoughts and/or feelings, maybe he would have seen that I wasn’t horrible at all. I hate knowing that he is probably looking back on those times thinking that I was a monster – because I am not.
insights from the grief work
One thing that came out the grief work I just did this weekend was that the bad relationships I’ve had (about 40% of them were bad) and my sibling had had were patterned on the “person” we were each trying to win over. Despite being from the same family, they were different people- so we had different “profiles” of bad exes.
But reading experiences here with the ex reminds me so clearly of how it’s so easy to “play the game” from childhood imprinting as an adult. I wrote down 14 bad things that adults told me about myself as a child, and of them, my ex implied or said 13 of them to me. Telling, isn’t it?
What if us women had had women friends treating us this way- in non-romantic relationships- would we have put up with it?
Sadly I have accepted similar treatment from friends… obviously low self esteem and worth. Which would also probably be why I believe it and constantly put myself down about making too much of those moments, not choosing the right battles, and just not handling things the way that he felt I should. I am not a bad person or partner because I am emotional and because I want to work through fights. But yet I can’t let go of what he thinks of me (I know, its none of my business and I am really trying). It breaks my heart that after 3 years of loving him, he looks back at those times and thinks I am/was a horrible partner. “I saw a different side of you when we moved in” – he saw the human side, with emotions, and he only wanted me the way he wanted me.
A lot of what you describe in yourself Hope is closely associated with me.
The inability to shirk off issues. The inability to just ‘let’ a relationship crumble. I think a likewise attitude and outlook on life (and relationships) is not negative, or bad by any means. I let what my ex thought about me greatly control myself. I also felt the need to constantly impress her and ‘prove’ myself which I did for a long time. When I finally started being ‘me’, which included emotions, some introverted behaviors, some ‘pushing’ to make changes in a relationship, etc….. things really took a different turn.
I don’t regret it and neither should you. Nobody should live to impress or constantly have to prove themselves to their partner. Because what happens when things that they don’t like crop up ? They split and run.
I’ve made a conscious effort and have also made a realization. Part of it was my fault. That part was allowing myself to be manipulated and ‘play the role.’
I can’t say that I didn’t know, because many times in the back of my head I would think ‘wait, this isn’t how a relationship should be’, but pushed away that feeling time and time again, due to fear primarly.
It is a rough ride going through that and acknowledging it, but it makes for you to be a better partner in the future.
Thank you so very much Michael. That is exactly what happened, when I began to expect him to be a partner to me he didn’t want any part of it. I had done so much to impress him, so much love and giving, and yet it was as if none of it mattered. Even after the breakup my nose was drug through the mud in all that I did, which mind you was never anything even remotely major. I too in the back of my head wondered what would happen if the roles reversed and I was the one who needed to be comforted and supported, and I think I knew the answer all along. Once I had admitted to him that I have a difficult time sometimes dealing with my emotions (I was in an abusive relationship before him and constantly had to fight to defend myself), it was like every time something happened I was to blame because of this flaw. It was never something serious, it was just that I had been drug through the mud before and something inside me told me that he would do it as well. I thought that it was just me being damaged, and then when it happened, it threw me for a loop.
How long does it take after you can look back and see the red flags will you stop loving them / missing them? I feel as if he haunts me and still effects my self image far too much.
bluebird,
I know exactly what you mean – if one of my friends or sisters were in the same situation, I would be furious, and I would want her to leave him and never look back. But somehow I was too caught up in the situation to see everything for what it really was. I can’t believe the type of treatment I accepted for so long; all it took was some distance from the situation to really put things into perspective – but that was a scary step to take. So now..I’m just trying to trust in the process, knowing that I’m doing the right thing.
This board has been a lifesaver…
Have a great Wednesday :)
Abby -
Sadly, I can relate to this one too… I was always doing things to gain reassurance from him, or get his approval. I’m amazed at the “crumbs” (as you put it :D) that I accepted from him. Even when I knew it not a healthy situation, I kept trying to gain approval from him, compromising my personality the whole time.
I’m so glad these experiences are behind me (us), and now we’re moving forward.
Hope-
Unfortunately, for many people the feeling takes awhile to go away. You will never forget the person, but the actual pain is a gradual process, and I mean GRADUAL. This was initially one of the reasons why I couldn’t let go. I was not able to face the issues and pain of leaving behind my ex. As bad as it is to say, I was willing to take a extremely crappy relationship with her, over being isolated by myself and having to face the world all by myself including the pain.
After I have begun to be able to do this, I slipped into a really bad depression. Even until now I don’t feel 100% better. The transition time is probably the worst, and how long that is, is probably how long we will not feel 100% better.
The other side of the coin though, is once you do meet someone who is a better fit for you, and someone who is also willing to give and not just take, is when things will really turn around. For anyone who has had the worst relationship ever and was able to meet someone 1,000x better, it most likely caused amnesia for the past horrid relationship :)
It is hard because at the moment, the current situation isn’t really good. Neither was the situation with the ex. Sound like a lose lose situation because it kinda is. At best, the situation is the lesser of 2 evils.
Hopefully with time, things begin to unravel themselves in a positive way.
Hope, I don’t believe it’s all low self-esteem and self-worth. Part of it (as I read on the people pleaing pattern link) is just cooperativeness, which is a really good trait. It’s just an extreme of cooperativeness- over a limit. I would a million times rather have a cooperator than an asshole around :).
This reminds me of how much I liked Beattie’s book about codependency– she stresses that codependents are some of the nicest, kindest, greatest people in the world. They just need to sit back. And not be jumping around to do things and ‘help’ to control, and act out past scenarios. There is no need to beat ourselves up in the process of adjusting ourselves so we can have peaceful lives.
One of my best friends has been told that she is just too easygoing and kind. And she was married to a man who fits the profile a lot of people have been talking about here. And she finally got out. And she rebuilt herself. She has had a few relationships with friendgirls who are too controlling- but I think she’s much less accepting of their bs now. And she’s dating another of my best friends, and they’re both awesome people, so it is really good. Yay.
Michael. That is so true. It def. is lose/lose right now. I know that there is a light at the end but somedays it just seems like a flicker and other I could sware it was a train! I am scared when I do meet that person, that I will still be guarded and will sabotage it somehow. My ex was so good at what he did, he was so romantic and really sensitive, and honestly, I think if a guy was nice to me I would run the other way :( It is so hard because I know I deserve better, that I will be ok, and that I will be happy, but right now I am becoming exhausted. Thanks again!
Serenity – that was the first thing my psych told me to read during my first visit. I would sit and read and shake my head astounded by how accurately she described me. It is hard because you meet some people who say you put yourself in this position with the decisions you made, and I can take responsibility for the part I played, but I was just loving him the best way I knew how. I am so happy for your friend! That she had the strength to get out and is now happy! It is very difficult to see the big picture through the present tears!
i also too cringe at the possibility of meeting someone new. I mean the idea of starting all over after the emotional turmoil is a bit much for me right now. I think that if you still have apprehensions about being in a relationship, it is still time to be single for longer and allow you to ‘find yourself’. There is no rush or competition. When you are ready, you’ll be able to allow it to happen on its own.
Hope.. you will be feeling better.. it will come and go. I feel your pain I really do.. I loved someone the best way I could.. and it eats me up every day that he didn’t love me back.. despite SAYING he did..
I understand you feel you cant’ trust.. but at least you WONT get fooled again
trust the process.. you will be ok.. it will turn out alright..
that’s what I keep saying.. I’m 44 and feel old and on the shelf and as if I’ve given my best years to people that didn’t deserve them.. Next time its not going to be that way.. until then I’m making life work without a relationship.. it has to
big hugs
Abbyx
yeah just wanted to agree with Michael up there. being ALONE in this sucks.. I am guessing too when one meets the person with whom there’s a ‘fit’ and its right.. things will be easier to ‘ move on’ from
I just wonder why my ex got to meet his ‘fit’ so soon and so easily.. and left without a care.. it doesn’t feel right but I’m guessing there’s a bigger plan?
Axxx
abbychaya, if “fit” means someone who takes bs and abuse more quietly, maybe he did. Perhaps the bigger plan is that a string of women get their eyes opened? Here’s a scenario that might shed some light. My friend’s ex (the NPD ex) is with the next-in-line and my friend’s been told by her kids that he is *extremely* mean to his now-wife. And the guess is perhaps that now-wife will leave as soon as she financially can. But I don’t think *anybody* is happy in that house. Meanness goes on there all the time.
And my friend is *HAPPY* in *her* life, and was happy without a partner, and now is with an EXCELLENT guy who makes her laugh all the time. Really! I went out to dinner with them the other night and they just smile and laugh and laugh. THIS will be the rest of her life I think, and I think her ex is going to end up all alone— word on the street is that these people get worse with age.
Serentity
I think he’s with a woman who is ‘less than’ me.. if that makes sense… I imagine she’s younger has no kids and looks up to him.. so yes
He said in the last email we had.. ” he has no intention of this relationship going down the same road as ours”
and that it is ‘different’
All designed to hurt and wound me
I woudl never say those things.. would you?
He drove a lorry through our relationship.. and then blamed it on me
I guess she is probably having more of the same but can turn a blind eye
I am happy to hear your friend ’s story!
hurrah for her!
and us
no more NPD or whatevers
peace
Axx
abbychaya, yeah…that’s my intuition too…your ex is with someone who’s taking it and not protesting with tears as of yet…and maybe he wants to keep the glow for a while so he’s not showing his true nature yet…It’s all about appearances, and we know those can be deceiving… It sounds like just like my ex he enjoys being “one-up” on you. (Like ‘ha ha’ I’m better than you kind of bananahead idiot stuff). Don’t buy that. Don’t even give him a nickel. It’s rotten goods.
It was your choice to be with him and perhaps ignore your intuition but it seems you were with a person who does not GET how to be in a real relationship. In a good relationship you respect the other person and talk things out. You listen to their point of view and really try to understand it. You realize that *everybody* makes sense, even if it’s not the same kind of sense that you make. And you value the other person so you do the best to be kind to her or him while maintaining loving boundaries for yourself.
YOU were not driving the lorry. As much as he tried to make things out that way, it seems as if the twisted traffic wreck was *not your fault*. And what *he* thinks about you and the relationship is “none of your business” and probably out in outer space too!! One thing you may want to do is what I did- I think based on something seeif had said- I wrote down MY STORY in my journal about what had happened. My eyes. Maybe as time goes by I’ll see with even more different eyes and write it differently, but it was affirming.
My ex told me that he was in a “great” relationship- with a long distance person- while he was still with me (ha- how great can it be if he’s cheating on 2 people at once??)- I had just found out a few weeks before and was reeling from that… He can show his good side long distance, and like so many of these guys (and gals) can pretend to be a person who is so wonderful all the time- I bought it for a Long Time (in person even, sigh) and only NC and what he did at the end was able to open my eyes. I wouldn’t say he was NPD, but certainly the various issues he had gave him quite a few narcissistic qualities. He had a really hard time understanding other people’s feelings (duuhhhh). He used to tell me that I was a person with one of the strongest sensitive feelings he’d ever met- my take on that now is that I was the only strongly feeling person who’d made the mistake to get so close for so long.
Anyway, I’m fighting the good fight to make this about *me* now. Forget about him and what he’s going to do to her and what’s going to happen in their relationship. Forget about the idiotic blame game he’s tried to play- just another control game to mess with your head. REFUSE TO PLAY. What about you?? We are our number one priorities!
Hope, I know what you mean about just loving him the best way you knew how…Your intentions were excellent. My intentions were excellent too. The results we got sucked.
Not until this year did I realize that my parents are totally codependent. They have a loving relationship and are each other’s best friends. However, there are definitely flaws in their relationship. I would say that they are actually too insular and there are some problematic everyday interactions. And my mother caretakes my father emotionally in a big way. So, my mother has served as a model for me of how to love someone. I think that most of us are like that- just following a script that was not written by us and maybe even passed down generationally willy-nilly. It’s like putting us and our good intentions (a great actor) in a really lousy movie (bad script)…what do you get? Disaster!
Thanks Serenity.. You are right… It’s not important now what is happening with him..
I’m sorry you were treated badly too.. it sucks.. BUT these people are here to teach us.. and for too long I put up with a lot of crap from a lot of people, which fortunatley now, I will not..
There is a certain loss of innocence and maybe part of the whole grieving process is letting go of who ‘we were’ back then.. as well as mourning the loss of our relatioinships..
Your ex sounds as if he embodied quite a few N qualities.. the lack of empathy… next time I come across that I will run as fast as I can.. Which is what I should have done with MR I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY ARE YOU SO UPSET ITS NEARLY TWO WEEKS SINCE WE SPLIT I HAVE MOVED ON WHY CANT YOU?
Thanks again for your wise words!
Abby
Serenity – I agree whole heartedly. My parents also have a very loving relationship and I do believe that having such an example was a bit of a hinderance. They dated in grade school, were best friends through highschool, and married shortley thereafter and are still so happily married. I am very thankful for having such a positive example, however, I also feel that it has set me up for disappointment and unrealistic expectations. I stand by my partner through good times and bad, I see the good in them and encourage them in every way, but I can’t seem to find one who reciprocates any of that or at the very least true appreciation. I took my ex to Vegas with his roommates as a graduation present, on my dime, and I don’t even remember getting a true, heartfelt thank you for it. I want to be with someone who can look at all that we have done together, all we have done for each other, and remain confident that what we have is worth far more then the bad times.
Abby – you have so eloquently described how I feel! I am no longer who I was back then, but I am a work in progress and sometimes that is very overwhelming and scary. My whole world changed in what seemed overnight (not just the breakup) and I am doing my best to rebuild – which is difficult with a broken heart.
Everyone on this thread is such a powerful example of getting your life back. Amazing!
I really feel the strength of each and every one of us.
Serenity – I love that you wrote your “story” of what happened with your ex. I think that’s your great idea not mine. Interestingly, I started meeting with a “life coach” to help me set up a internet business and keep this art stuff going. He and I have given me weekly assignments. One that he came up with is to write my story of success. I’m to tell the story of how and what I do to succeed in this business/creative venture. And I can tell it in words..or…pictures. I’m to spend at least 10 minutes a day creating this story. So you writing your story about your past with the ex, well, it’s just a wonderful example of synchronicity. You sound really strong and confident about what you believe and who you are.
Thanks to everyone.
Seeif
serenity and Seeif,
Those are both great variations on the “tell your story” idea—I’m going to try that, too. Since my ex didn’t want to talk about anything—forbid it, really—I never did formulate my own version of events until months later (and by then I was so down on myself that I wasn’t sure whether to trust it). It was kind of like standing there in pain with a big piece of duct tape over your mouth. Maybe eyes, too, since there was also an injunction against crying. Jeez, why did we put up with these things?!! Well, it must be a sign of progress that it seems weird to me now that I just accepted that. I can “feel the strength of each and every one of us” too, and it has a wonderful ripple effect. Somebody here told me that just watching the difference in me lately has been an encouragement (-;, and I can imagine that’s happening in a lot of our lives right now, even if we’re not aware of it. I think when you really want to be happy, whatever that means for you, when you keep trying and refuse to give up, it can be a gift to other people too. There was a time when I would have thought of doing something for myself as selfishness, but I’m beginning to see that maybe any happiness helps other people too. I like having this hope beyond my own life. Is that codependent? (-;
Thanks from me too.
God the Duct Tape image is so powerful.. I was literally NOT allowed to have feelings..or be in anyway ‘emotional’ I am a YOGA teacher for god’s sake and being sensitive and aware is like in my JOB description! This guy is a yogi.. so called.. and yet wanted me to just be a robot in my life with him
unbelievable
I think that being emotional and easily moved is a good thing.. otherwise where woudl the people who actually CARE and DO things be?
I do despair. today I have been crying on and off all day.. just being emotional
or letting it all out or something
Ax
Abby,
You’re right. It is a good thing, and I’m glad we know that now, instead of trying to keep everything inside. I’m sorry you’ve had a rough day, but the crying sometimes is not a bad thing. When I finally could let myself do that (it felt disloyal, to him and to the relationship, just to have my own feelings—isn’t that awful?) it was such a great relief. If you’ve had to try to be unemotional instead of being the sensitive soul you are, I think maybe crying is a way back to the self. So don’t be hard on yourself for it. And even in the midst of a down day, you bother to give support to someone else (like me!). That’s kindness, yes. But also strength! Sometimes I think all this sadness is meant to distract us so that our strong sides can take a bigger role in who we are and we’re not always turning that over to someone else, the way they might have made us responsible for all the feeling in the relationship. I don’t mean the man-woman thing. Some of that’s just the way of things. But at the same time, we deserve to be ALL of who we really are and not be punished for it. No more duct tape.
Keeping a good thought for you tonight, and I hope tomorrow’s a good day.
To Seeif
I have not been on for a few days. Just wanted to say thanks so much for your kind words and also your understanding and wisdom after I posted my story. Through sites like these, I have been able to make a lot of progress. I will read the book you recommended! Best wishes to you (and everyone) –
Bluebird… thank you as well.. I felt very down and tearful yesterday.. but it was maybe just one of those days.. I have been thinking of writing it all down.. every last thing and reading to someone all the way through.. have a witness to all the suffering and confusion and maybe then I can let go of what happened.. I sometimes catch myself recycling and thinking “maybe it was all in my head and I am mad?”
This is possibly THE most destructive thing about Abusive relationships. That one’s reality can be so totally warped . I never used to ‘get it’ when I read about, or listened to people talking about how they always went back to an abusive partner (usually physical abuse, I didn’t really know about emotional abuse back then) and I would be incredulous.. Like why didn’t they just walk away?
Yeah right.. Because we are so invested in the tiny shred of reality that is ours and the crumbs that come our way to reinforce that reality.. Gradually over time I came to believe that the problem in my relationship was me (being emotional and easily moved to tears) and that any attempts to talk or resolve or get a handle on what is happpening, are met with the clamp down.
My ex used to walk out when I tried to talk about what had happened. In fact the one time we met (after he ended with me) and I tried t talk about ‘the night in question’ he moved for his car keys and almost got up to leave.. so I had to ‘change the subject’ in order to keep him there..
Manipulation is something I never really understood. But, I understand now the insiduous nature of abuse.
Never again
Take care all of you out there
Abbyx
Just wanted to share this with you.. some of you might have read it already
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/special.shtml
It’s chillingly accurate and may help those who (like me) think that somehow their abusive ex is doing it different with her…
Word for word I have read things he said to me (If I can’t make it with you I can’t make it with anyone… you are so special and different etc)
I hope it helps
Abbyx
I agree with you guys, this thread has been pretty amazing and thoughtful and supportive.
Abby, I wish I had been able to cry more. I didn’t because he was the one ‘comforting’ me initially, as he was almost the only friend I had at the time. I did cry a bit during the griefwork with my sister last weekend. And I keep on reminding myself that the only way out of grief is through it- so feeling it will get me to a different place. And this is really new for me- in my childhood home, we didn’t “feel” negative emotions. So I think my grief has built up from childhood to now.
Seeif,
Way to go with the life coach. That’s another example of taking care of yourself well, and I’m very glad to hear you’re making progress with your project.
Well…it took a while – but today it finally HIT me. I finally see how rotten my ex was and how selfish….and manipulative. Now – I am really angry and really irritated. I also feel grateful for this moment – because I knew in my head that it was true – and today it seems that my heart has a glimmer of truth too. What a royal JERK! I am embarrassed to think about what I put up with……jeeeeeez. Lies. Division of friends. No sex. Cheating during the entire 1st year of our relationship (recently discovered)….and living in his little universe. A perverse little universe – I hopped into it though. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr……………….
It feels like it really just snuck up on me….how did that happen??!!
Thank you all for being here – because I know that you all have a part in this revelation. I am going to eat some chololate now and then go for a long walk with my dog….maybe we will howl at the full moon.
WHAT A JERK!!!! ARGH!!!!
Anne–
No need to feel embarassed. The manipulation is cunning, baffling, and powerful. Yes, we can benefit from self-examination to heal. But, I maintain that this kind of manipulation and emotional abuse is a form of brainwashing: something very, very subtle and so twisted that no one in her right mind could understand(which I believe many of us were in the beginning). Like I’ve said before, I compare it to being in a cult and needing to be deprogrammed.
Anger was my first emotion of grief. It was very powerful and liberating. It took me to pain, though. Realizing that I’d been used. Remember a manipulator depends on confusing his victim.
My first step was seeing who HE was. I had to see him, see his lies, before I could turn the light on myself. He had kept me in the dark for so long, I had to shine the light on his manipulations and character in order to find a path away from him — and, to myself.
Hope you enjoyed the chocolate.
Hi Seeif –
Thank you once again for your insight and sharing. I agree with you about the subtlety of the manipulation. It is pretty darn amazing – and it just crept up on me…I am currently thinking about the relationship and there is not one moment that I can think to say “A-ha! THAT’S IT!!!” Before I knew it – I felt really contained and stifled – which is ironic because he was the one to rant about not having any space. It happened over the period of one year.
I get even more mad (mostly at myself) because prior to this relationship I was on an even keel – taking care of myself – going to school – finding work I love – figuring out where I am coming from – where I want to go and pretty much being a rockin’ chick! It is disappointing that I couldn’t see what was happening and chose to ignore the red flags. Oh well- time to dust myself off and get back on the path I was on before all this craziness!
btw – Chocolate was good – dog walk was even better.
I hope you have a great day and thank you thank you.
Anne
Hi Seeif –
Thank you once again for your insight and sharing. I agree with you about the subtlety of the manipulation. It is pretty darn amazing – and it just crept up on me…I am currently thinking about the relationship and there is not one moment that I can think to say “A-ha! THAT’S IT!!!” Before I knew it – I felt really contained and stifled – which is ironic because he was the one to rant about not having any space. It happened over the period of one year.
I get even more mad (mostly at myself) because prior to this relationship I was on an even keel – taking care of myself – going to school – finding work I love – figuring out where I am coming from – where I want to go and pretty much being a rockin’ chick! It is disappointing that I couldn’t see what was happening and chose to ignore the red flags. Oh well- time to dust myself off and get back on the path I was on before all this craziness!
btw – Chocolate was good – dog walk was even better.
I hope you have a great day and thank you thank you.
Anne
[...] TFTD ~ When The Person You Love Do 7 More On Standards 5/4 TFTD ~ On Closure Unequivocally Dumped The Abusive and Semi-Abusive Relationshi 1/14 TFTD ~ How Do I [...]
Anne.. I agree about the subtlety.. I had NO idea about all this stuff but in my relationship of two and a bit years had the nagging doubt at the back of my mind that something wasnt right and I remember ‘researching’ abusive relationships on the net.. but not really truly belieiving I was in one
My ex ended with me suddenly, brutally and literally one day just walked away… he refused all contact and then suddenly had a new gf a ‘few weeks later’… He blamed the end on me – saying that because I was sick one night I had ’shut him’ out and not allowed him to look after me.. THe truth was he shouted at me, told me I was making it up (i was being violently ill at the time) and said I should leave (at one in the morning) and go to my mothers.
He lied and manipulated and decieved.. I even nearly bought it, about it being my fault.. I racked my brains to think how I could have shut him out.
IN the weeks that followed he even said, when I was in tears that he wouldn’t speak to me “now you know how it feels”
These people are deluded and sick.. I’m glad to be out… My whole reality was warped and it has been really hard to unravel.. I guess its a kind of post traumatic stress syndrome thing that happens after the relationship
Take care and enjoy the rest of the week
Abbyx
Abby – mine said that too!! It is still so hard for me to get my head around the fact of how unhealthy he is without somehow rationalizing it so that it is my fault first. When he took all forms of affection away from me and refused to make any attempt to make things work (while still living together) and just grew more and more cold and distant he actually turned it around and told me one night “perhaps subconsciously I am treating you how I felt you treated me these last couple months.” WHAT?! I was homesick and sad and didn’t have the energy to make you the center of my world during that time (nor should I have EVER) and now I am being punished for it? And rather then tell me how he felt he just kept track in his mind and by the time it was unleashed, it was too late. I hate letting go of a relationship for reasons that should never have caused the end; so I am doing my best to remind myself of how unhealthy his thought process was and how different our values obviously are.
it seems like a lot of people have unemotional ex’s. One of my friend’s ex’s that cheated on him was the same way. It must be a common thing.
Michael. I hope your day today is brighter then yesterday and your recylcing gets easier.
I hope yours gets easier too :).
I try not to look back from now to the time when my relationship ended. I feel like I’ve been dead for the past 6 months. It dosen’t even feel like real time passed.
Hi
have been recycling endlessly today.. the knowledge that him and the new gf are going off travelling soon.. makes it doubly painful.. we had talked of that last year and now…
I am feeling sad, lonely and old and just wondering what I did to deserve this when I put my whole being into the relationship (yes yes I know and did not look after myself)
it leaves me sad and not wanting another relationship and that not wanting makes me even sadder. the hope gone …
Just a bad day.. I know this will pass
Abbyx
I am so sorry you are having a hard day abby! I dont know if it is in the air, but I too have been having a very trying day with old unwelcome thoughts and feelings returning. I wish there was something I could say to make it easier, or less painful, or give you hope, but all I can do is offer company while recycling!
Michael – I had told a friend of mine a little bit ago that it is so frustrating because everyone tells you that it takes time, times heals all, etc, and yet time seems to stand still.
I am getting to the point where I say “on this day last year …” and that is very difficult. Doesn’t help with the what ifs, or the self blame.
That’s interesting because I was doing the same thing too ! I think I have a tendency to reminice about the past. It seems to be easier to do cuz the present isn’t too great. I think back sometimes and am like, ‘….on March we did this….’
Nostalgia sucks. It also is triggered really easily, like road signs, songs, even calendar dates…..stuff like that.
Sometimes I wonder if it is better to be naive. I am not only nostalgic with my ex but also with old friends and old times. I appreciate everything and am very sentimental, which hasn’t really served me very well since I get so sad remembering old times. I think back to college and summer parties and I think, well, they may not have been true friends, but those were some good times and even though I know there would be no value there I still miss it very much. My ex and I had such amazing weekends. And this time last year is when everything started to go down hill. It is strange because sometimes I feel like not a day has passed and yet time has flown. I realize how juvenile it sounds to say this, but life is hard. Finding yourself, losing friends, losing love – it just gets so overwhelming and exhausting at times.
Hope It’s doesn’t sound juvenile at all.You just described everything I am thinking in your last sentence. Thanks for encapsulating it that way . It’s what I want to cry out and say but couldn’t put all my thoughts and feelings together the way you just did.
It really hurts to lose someone we love…
When I was in college I also had a blast with all my friends and my ex. It was one of the best times in my life as I was depressed in highschool. Once I moved away and got depressed again, only 2 of my ‘friends’ really came around.
This made me even more depressed as I realized that they weren’t really that great of friends after all, and that my ex wasn’t what I thought she was.
The cycle of life itself is exhausting at times. Frequently I find myself struggling to just make it through the day with my sanity. That is about the best I can do. I remember for the first several months after my break up I went to work frequently looking like crap. Unshaved, hair not geled…..you could see it on me.
The thing is though, living a lie really isn’t that much better either. I’ve always been about the truth and what is authentic, but it has been painful at the same time.
At the same time, I still managed to get into grad school and start it, despite all the circumstances. I know that’s what you’ve been talking about for awhile, maybe if you set a date for yourself to take the GMAT that would be a good start at least right ? :)
Hi all. Is there some global recycling program we’re all on? Today and yesterday have been really difficult for me too. I keep on trying to talk to myself and tell myself what I’ve done so far and what I’m doing right. Sending out lots of love!
Hi Serenity,
Personally, I think it’s the time of year. Last weekend was really tough. It was a year ago Easter that my ex and I were beginning our thing. Whatever that was. But it was the beginning. I am beginning my own life again. That is new. But I’m also “finishing” old business with my ex and other losses , other unresolved grief.
So, as glorious as it is to walk among acres of wild Mexican poppies splashed across the mountains, the passion it evokes — of new life– is painful. Painful because I’m wanting to embrace the new seed, while saying goodbye to the other, the other splendor in the grass.
Seeds, whales, recycled cans…sounds like a new art project.
Thanks Seeif, for being one of the most informative and supportive people around here…
Right back at you, Serenity (for being “one of the most informative and supportive people”.)
I love it: “seeds, whales, recycled cans…” Long live the seed/twig boat people!!! Sure you don’t want to reconsider the photo-captioned seed people novella?
Thanks to you, too. I always appreciate what you write and how you speak to us, here.
I think the grief recycling is just part of the process: it’s a sign that we’re allowing ourselves to FEEL. Sometimes pain is the portal for joy. I want to keep the door unlocked — just in case.
Take care.
Susan just mentioned the work of Judith Herman(n?) on the yahoo group Seeif. I’ve just been googling and reading about her work. You may find it interesting.
The little gpyp seed people set off in the bellies of a pod of whales…
I love Judith Herman’s Trauma and Recovery. Trauma and Recovery talked to the soul of my trauma. She’s the one who introduced the idea that domestic violence victims and prisoners-of-war experienced similar kinds of “brainwashing” at the hands of their captors and perpetrators, through the practice of intermittent rewards and punishments which resulted in the victims, in both cases, defending the captors and perpetrators. She described how someone who is subjected to repeated abuse and repeated trauma STAYS and becomes dependent on the very persons who are perpetrating the abuse.
I credit Herman for putting the blame for abuse, repeated abuse where it belongs: on the abuser. Not the victim. She was instrumental in creating a new diagnosis for repeated trauma ( abuse that happens over time); that diagnosis became known as complex post-traumatic stress disorder. A disorder that considers how ingrained and
internalized the abuse becomes for the victims, making it hard for the victims to “walk away” or free themselves from their abusers.
Her description and acknowledgement of the brainwashing;her comparison of the torture/brainwashing of prisoners-of-war to domestic violence victims stands alone-still – in its courage and understanding of why victims of abuse don’t “just leave.” And why they cleave to their abusers. She’s one of the few theorists( and one who spent many years talking to domestic violence victims, as well as rape survivors and combat veterans) who doesn’t begin her discussion by looking at what the victims did to attract the abuserShe looks at the behavior of abuser and examines how the process of occasional good behavior,and society’s message to women (and men)that says in order to love you need “to be patient, understanding, loyal, and unselfish”; and how that conditions partners to stay even when their lives may depend on getting out.
Yes, Judith Herman, who is a psychiatrist, is one of my heroes. As a personal aside, she was married to a photographer named Jerry Bernt who was one of my teachers years ago. He happens to be a great person and a wonderful photographer, too. I remember meeting her at some opening and thinking she was nice and friendly. Little did I know that she would write a book that would change the way so many of us look at trauma.
Really good stuff.
[...] and a degree of ignorance about the dynamics of abuse. The Getting Past Your Past blog has a great article explaining “The Abusive and Semi-Abusive Relationship” . . . she twice features this warning in bold type: The most lethal time for an abused person is [...]
Hi Susan, first I just want to say thank you for writting this post. I am a young male actually and I’ve been in a long-term relationship for at least a year now, but the ride hasn’t been as smooth as I’d like to admit. There have been countless problems and even now I tend to become very nervous about what she tells me she’s doing and what she really is doing. I’m sorry to say that I’m actually embarrassed to talk about this in an open post, so if you can or if anyone else would like to give me advice or hear my story then please feel free to ask me for my e-mail address (Not my actual one, but more of a social one) If you so desire. Thank you once again for the post you written.
-Markus
Hey Markus: it’s hard. I know. Why don’t you join the email group? The purple button on the right. It’s more intimate and very supportive. Welcome. Hang out. It’s nice here.
What exactly is the e-mail group and how does it work? What’s the difference between posting here and there? Just curious. Thanks.
The email group is a smaller group. Some people post both here and there, some people only here, some people only there. It’s a smaller and probably more safe environment but not as busy. There are less posts there than comments here in any one day but people are supportive and caring. The join button is one the right panel. It’s the big purple one.
Charleenjj,
Thanks so much!
Hello, your comments have somehow hit home however, Im not sure why.
I have come out of a 6 year relationship with a lovely person whom I was very negative with and casued the downfall of our relationship. The realtionship ended last year. Anyway since then I have started dating another guy for 6 months and I feel that he is less emotional than my ex. (Me ex was not abusive, we cited the breakup as incompatibility). This new guy makes me feel that Im too emotional and “hyper sensitive” is the term he uses and doesnt seem to want to talk about any problems that may arise in the relationship. He thinks I am needy and lack self confidence and does not want to “indulge” in things that I may bring up. When I have brought things up that may bother him about me such as his lack of emotion and sensitivity, he thinks I am “nagging” and causing trouble. Im feeling more horrible every day. Last night we went for a walk and he was very cold towards me telling me that he was just uptight cos of work. This left me extremely unsettled as he would not be warm or discuss what was wrong. That night I messaged him telling him how I was feeling and rang him and he never called me back except to message and ask me “Why I am unsettled”. To which I answered that I was extremely worried about us. His reply is not to take what he says to seriously. I have experienced in the past coldness and silence when I am upset, crying or down. Maybe I am still emotional about my ex and losing the best thing that could have happened to me and am looking for solace in this new person. I do blame myself. The new guy seems to think that this is how he is and that he cannot change his emotional make up and that maybe I should find someone else. We have already had some very bad fights to which he tried to break up with me and almost kicked me out of his house (we do not live together). I stayed and tried to sort it out but he wouldnt look at me and refused to talk. Im very confused about this. Please help me.
Calypso Tulip,
There’s a cycle that’s been reported here in the blog that seems to be fairly common, in that any insecurity that is felt or reported by one partner is labeled as being needy and undesirable by the other. And it all becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It sounds as if neither of you is very satisfied with this relationship, and there is a problem with communication, and some of it very unpleasant indeed. Feeling lonely or insecure or unsettled is not going to be solved by trying to make a dysfunctional relationship work, especially if your partner is backing up, feeling defensive, and responding in anger. It seems like you should be spending your time getting right with yourself, getting comfortable with who you are before you invest yourself in another relationship, especially one that does not seem to be of solace or a safe place to be. Something is not always better than nothing, and sometimes nothing is just the place we need to be, till we do our work. Besides, having “something” with your own self is a very valuable thing.
There is so much good advice here. Hit the archives and read read read. Pick up the books that are mentioned here. It’s not just letting go of the past, but understanding it before you can move on. Otherwise we’re doomed to just re-enact the same behaviors over and over, with only a new cast of characters, but always to a similar end. Vent all you want to, ask questions, be open to a new way of thinking. We’re all here for the same reasons, and the folks who have journeyed far enough through the tunnel will be happy to tell you how good the light feels when you finally get to it. Safe journey, and welcome.
Lexi
Thank you so much for your response. It means a lot and you are right that I should get right and comfortable with myself first before I enter into another relationship. I know I rushed into this one and it is partly my fault and his. He came after me and even though I told him that I was still hurting from the break up and there was still communication and attachment there with my ex, he said that the best way to get over it was to move on and not waste any more time with a relationship that didnt work in 6 years. He was right so I took the plunge. So in a way he helped me sever the tie that needed to be severed. Attachment is a hard thing to sever. But I know that perhaps I should have taken more time out to myself. Being 33 years old and meeting this other guy made me realise that I do need to move on. I really care about this new person and am trying to stop being so needy. I am a very analytical and warm and communicative person. He is a very laid back and happy type of guy and I thought he would support me through the emotional coaster that I am on conisdering he was the one to tell me it was time to move on and away from the ex. It just seems that he gets annoyed with me and thinks I ask to many questions. He rang me last night after he got home from work, had dinner at his parents and went for a walk, then he decided to call after I was stewing all day. I told him how upset i was that he never called me back all day and especially after the cold attitude he gave me when I rang him at lunch at his work. (He is in a very high pressure environment and doesnt like long phonecalls at work) and I hung up on him. Later that night and after a few sms he rang me and he told me that he is under a lot of pressure at the moment and that I should understnad why he is uptight and cold. But I said to him thats why we find solace in our partner and switch off and talk together about it. Should I just accept this and understand as he asks? Im worried and in a dilemma that I may be expecting him to be someone he is not, or that I have a fantasy as to how a guy should be or that I am expecting him to be as warm and supportive as my ex. He has told me to stop comparing him to my ex. Maybe subconsiously I am. Very confused at the moment. I am going through all archives as you advised. Just feel very unhappy and alone at the moment. My ex never treated me this way but I felt stifled with him, which I am kicking myself now for as I realise he was caring and protective something that I crave for now.
My ex blaming me for his emotional abuse of me was a huge red flag — and it happened early on. It was total bullshit and manipulation. His put downs of my wanting to talk to my partner, to be understood, to be soothed were mean. What I was asking for was normal. I should have run as fast as I could to flee his unacceptable responses. Abusers always make it about you. It’s always your fault. And they will NEVER take responsibility for their abuse of you.
There are plenty of people out there who are in high-pressured jobs who maintain kindness and consideration in their behavior toward ALL people, including, and especially toward their partners.
My ex even told me when I confronted him about his accusations/verbal abuse that he was “trying to help” me. Uh, no, uh, another No, then a double NO,NO. No, verbal/emotional abuse is NEVER about helping someone else. It’s about control. It’s about needing to diminish the other, in order to maintain control over that person. To win, to be “better than.”
Calypso, listen to YOUR feelings, they are telling you the TRUTH. Don’t listen to his words. His words are about one thing: control.
On another note, I’m reading a book about true love finding you. It talks about this kind of rejection and judgmentalism so many of us have experienced from partners and others. It suggests that we are often attracting people into our lives because they mirror our own rejection and negative judgment of ourselves. Often, this is because of the trauma of rejection and negative judgment we experienced either as children, or as adults.
Although this idea has been promoted by many others I’ve read, including Susan here at GPYP, I think I’m finally getting it. I’m getting it because I’m beginning to believe I am lovable and acceptable just the way I am. And I believe I deserve love and happiness — that it is possible. I want those in my life, in every aspect of my life.
Until we change what we believe about ourselves; until we replace our negative self-image with a positive self-image, we’ll keep finding people who tell us to feel bad about ourselves. They will mistreat us because we feel we deserve to be mistreated, deep down.
To be clear, abuse is abuse is abuse. It’s NEVER acceptable. The abuser is responsible for his/her abuse of you. Not you.
But when I change my negative self-image to a positive one, those sharks just aint gonna want to circle me anymore. My self-love radiates a light too bright for those purveyors of darkness. The force of the light will push them out, away
from me, far, far, far away.
Believe in your own goodness, Calypso. Believe in you. If you do, this guy won’t want to stick around. I can almost guarantee it.
Take good care of yourself. Give yourself a loving hug, tonight. You deserve it.
Glad you’re here. We need you.
Seeif
Calypso,
That last post was from me, Seeif. I was writing TO you, not AS you. It’s been a long day. It should have said, “Seeif Says”.
Thank you Seeif, those are wise words. And thank you all for welcoming me to this site. I think it will help clear a few of the cobwebs in my mind.
Which book are you reading? It sounds interesting….
Im in a state of confusion as to whether he is putting me down or I am expecting him to be warm and emotional like my ex. I feel so unmotivated at work and also find it hard to concentrate. I think I am struggling to come to terms with the loss of my ex that I blame myself a lot for, and wanting this guy to treat me like my ex. Maybe he feels pressured. Maybe Im expecting too much from him and am being needy and he is frustrated and cant handle it. I always thought that if someone cares for you that they will do everything to ensure that you are okay and be consoling. Or is that just a female thing? I had that with my ex and am finding it hard to accept why this person cant be that way to me when i am always like that to him.
Seeif,
“I’m getting it because I’m beginning to believe I am lovable and acceptable just the way I am. And I believe I deserve love and happiness — that it is possible. I want those in my life, in every aspect of my life.” Me, too. Hey, I’m so glad for you! I think I’m beginning to get it, too. I’m like you in just now realizing that I only THOUGHT I got it before. I had the same situation as you whenever (not very often!) I asked for (normal!) kindness and support. And I truly think, though I haven’t been put through the fire in a new relationship yet, that I would now walk away from that kind of mind game. No, run! And I hope it’s the same for you. You may have mentioned this in another post, but what is the name of the book you’re reading? It sounds like just what I need right now.
I know it comes and goes, but you sound so strong these days. Thanks for all the encouragement you give everyone here. You deserve to be SO happy! -;
Calypso and bluebird,
The name of the book is Love Will Find You. Before you dive in, though, I should tell you the premise is that we all have soulmates. And the book is about making yourself open to receiving your soulmate. As a huge skeptic, I can say… that I was quite skeptical about the soulmate thing. But even if you don’t believe in the soulmate idea, you can still do the exercises. And the exercises are similar to the inventories suggested at GPYP: writing down the good and bad points of past relationships, but also the positive things YOU contributed to those relationships. There’s a ritual of writing out your negative thoughts and beliefs about love –based on your past experiences and what you think society will provide you, e.g. because of your age or your looks or your education. You write these down on pieces of paper then burn them while reciting an affirmation. And for every negative thought you write down, you write an alternate positive affirmation, which you write in a special journal. After you’ve burned your negative thoughts/beliefs about love, you return to the new love affirmations, and while reciting an affirmation, you embrace these new beliefs.
Also, if you don’t believe there’s a soulmate out there for you, a special someone, the book is helpful in helping you to open up your heart to love. At least that’s what it’s doing for me. You list very SPECIFICALLY what you are looking for and WHO you are looking for, which is very empowering. And, more importantly, the book helps you restore the belief that you CAN find someone who love will you in the the way that YOU want to be loved. The message is: we DON’T have to settle.
I’m still reading so that’s all I can say right now.
I do want to be clear with other people that I’m not promoting this book. I’m just answering the question about what book I have been reading. So feel free to take what you like.
Take care, bluebird. You’ve always been very positive and encouraging to me. I so appreciate you, and what you put out here on this blog.
Thanks, Seeif. I’m going to order it up. I need to learn to think in a new way about all of this as I go forward. I’m not so frightened of the past anymore; now I want to not be fearful of the future. I don’t want to let myself drown in the wake of all this, or close up the hole after me (that’s where all the light comes in). He always berated me for being too open, but I think maybe that semi-absurd receptivity (if I can hold onto it) might turn out to be my saving grace. Hope so, anyway. (-;
Love to all you brave seekers tonight, and hope you find wonderful things out there.
I just found this article about personality disorders on this site belonging to a psychologist named Dr. Joseph M. Carver. I wanted to quote a section on “shallow emotions,” one of the characteristics of the Cluster B personality disorders that the author describes:
“…Shallow Emotions – Healthy people are always amazed and astonished that a person with a Personality Disorder can quickly detach from a partner, move on, and exhibit very little in the way of remorse or distress. A Personality Disorder can find another partner following a breakup, often within days. These same individuals can also quickly detach from their family and children. They can become angry with their parents and not contact them for years. A Personality Disorder can abandon their children while blaming the spouse/partner for their lack of support and interest. Their ability to behave in this manner is related to their ‘Shallow Emotions’. The best way to think of Shallow Emotions is to have a great $300.00 automobile (192 euros). You have a limited investment in the automobilie and when it’s running great you have no complaints. You take the effort to maintain maintenance on the vehible as long as the costs are low. If it develops costly mechanical difficulties, it’s cheaper to dispose of it and get another $300.00 automobile that will run well. Also, if you move a large distance, you leave it behind because it’s more costly to transport it. A Personality Disorder has shallow emotions and often views those around them as $300.00 autos. Their emotional investment in others is minimal. If their partner is too troublesome, they quickly move on. If parents criticize their behavior, they end their relationship with them…until they need something….”
–from “Personality Disorders: The Controllers, Abusers, Manipulators, and Users in Relationships” by Joseph M. Carver
(a psychologist).
Thought this was very interesting. It spoke to me, maybe it speaks to you.
It explains my ex’s tossing me aside like yesterday’s bag of cheetos.
Dr. Carver has another great article called ” ‘The Loser’: Warning Signs You’re Dating a Loser”. (It’s gender neutral.)
I’m reading the blog…just haven’t had time to post. Good to read about others’ recovery. Take Care. ( Hey, Serenity and bluebird, hope you’re doing well.)
I realize now, in retrospect, just how emotionally unhealthy my relationship was. I am starting to question if it was even love or just complete obsession and addiction on both ends. It was never healthy, I know that much.
I believe that in addition to having severe diagnosed depression, my ex has one or two personality disorders. He is just not well. I broke up with him in early fall and he is still sporadically contacting me, trying to bait me into contact. I made it clear that it won’t happen, but he will not back off. There’s been at least 5 attempts this past month. Now I may have to change my phone number.
What’s ridiculous is that HE’s the one who sabotaged the relationship because he had a mental break and spiraled out of control. It’s clear from his behavior that he is still refusing meds, which is why I bailed. It’s seriously enough already.
Good riddance to bad seeds.
Seeif, could you take a look at the Tales from NC post thread and maybe put in your two cents?
Thanks for your posting on “shallow emotions”. You are our “codie” librarian extrodinaire.
As for me, I’ve reached a very strange layer of the onion. I’m changing all sorts of important parts of my life, so it’s a bit overwhelming, and I’ve started to grieve past ungrieved griefs. It’s a lot of stuff.
I’d love to see you and bluebird on the yahoo group! bluebird can show us a pic of her menagerie there…
MovingOn,
It sounds like you know who you’re dealing with. For me, it was confusing since I was getting so many mixed messages. The personality disorder characteristics describe a lot of my ex’s behaviors. I wish I could say he’s the only one I’ve dated. The more I read about who gets involved with PDs, the more I’m convinced my mother probably had a personality disorder. The literature suggest that many of us have a family member with one of the disorders who mistreated us, sometimes with neglect rather than outright emotional or physical abuse.The disorders exist on a continuum, and I think my mother was very high functioning. She really didn’t value anybody but herself — even though she was a successful social worker. Now, that’s confusing.
Wanted to share with you more of what Dr. Carver says about “warning signs of losers”:
“Breakup Panic- ‘The Loser’ panics at the idea of breaking up – unless it’s totally their idea – then you’re dropped like a hot rock. Abusive boyfriends often break down and cry, they plead, they promise to change, and they offer marriage/trips/gifts when you threaten ending the relationship. Both male and female losers may threaten suicide, threaten to return to old sweethearts(who feel lucky they’re gone!), or threaten to quit their job and the area…’The Loser’ offers a multitude of ‘deals’ and halfway measures, like ‘Let’s just date one more month!’
“They shower you with phone calls, often every five minutes, hoping that you will make an agreement or see them just to stop the telephone harassment…Creative losers often create so much social pressure that the victim agrees to go back to the bad relationship rather than continue under the social pressure…Their reaction is emotionally intense, a behavior they use to keep you an emotional prisioner…”
— from “‘The Loser’: Warning signs You’re Dating a Loser” by Joseph M. Carver.
Just remember, MovingOn, you’re not responsible for him — even if he has a serious mental illness.
You sound strong.
Take care.
Seeif
Serenity,
You’re inspiring me. Right now I’m focused on doing this art business thing. However, I continue to go to 12 step meetings; and, I am reading Susan Anderson’s book (on your recommendation). Also, I’m doing exercises in Love Will Find You, the book about opening yourself up to your soulmate/ to love.
Yes, I’d like to join the email group. I go there from time to time. I’d like to see bluebird’s furry group. I’ve got my own — and, after way too much research, I’m getting my first P&S digital camera. It’s so different from film SLRs, and I’ve definitely been resistant. But I need it for the internet biz. And I imagine I’ll take a few pics of my critters.
I’ll take a look at that thread. Good to hear from you.
Seeif
I googled Carver’s article, and found it quite valuable. Printed it out, and shared it with friends. It’s like a list of a lot of different red flags- one of my friends thought that one person had to have all of them (yikes!). Anyway, found two of my X’s traits on there- the critical thing and the “fast honeymoon” thing that changes to treating the person the same way he would a waitress…
That was a really good observation…that after six months, the person you’re dating will most probably treat you very similarly to how they treat a neutral person of the opposite gender (for example a waitress in a restaurant); although my officemate suggested that we women are naturally inclined by social conditioning to be nicer to servers- so looking at how someone treats a server might work best for women. Maybe look at how a man treats a female desk clerk at a hotel?
Yeah, looking at how your new friend treats a server of the opposite sex was incredibly insightful. What I took from that was: if the new friend is arrogant and feels superior to women(or to men, I guess)then that will come out in the customer/server situation, an inherently unequal relationship.
I’ve printed it out. And, put it on my desk. It’s handy, in case I’m wondering about someone’s behavior. I sent it to two women friends.
My ex did the quick attachment and expression thing, telling me he was in love with me 3 weeks after meeting me. And, ya know, I knew it was a red flag when it happened! I stuffed it though. And that’s where knowing yourself and vulnerability become key. I was extremely vulnerable: I was in an abusive work situation and I hadn’t been in a serious relationship for a few years. Now I realize I need to check in with good friends about this stuff before I act. Especially, if I’m under a great deal of stress when I meet someone — if someone seeks me out like my ex.
A red flag: if it seems too good to be true, then it probably is.
I like that the author, Joe Carver, says that if “your partner possesses even one of these features, there is a risk in the relationship.”
I trust writers who do not minimize abusive behavior.
My ex also did the “mean and sweet cycle” and “it’s always your fault” things.
Carver describes these behaviors better than anyone else I’ve read, so far. I like that it’s gender neutral, too.
I’m glad you found it valuable.
I didn’t realize until after reading this that I’d abused my ex. I don’t know how to change it. I don’t know how to make up for it. I spent all this time thinking that he left me because he couldn’t deal with the love I had to offer, or that he was trying to change me, but the reality is that he was waiting for me to “come to my senses” and love him the way grown-ups do, and I was the one getting jealous and conniving and wanting sex when he didn’t. He was the one with healthy boundaries, and I was the one who wanted to melt into him.
I’m active in my 12 step program. I’m in therapy. I do the deal. But that hasn’t changed things.
I don’t know how I’m supposed to change that, when the things I’ve tried so far haven’t worked.
I’ve gotten out of abusive relationships before where I’ve been abused, but how the hell am I supposed to stop abusing?
Megan,
The fact that you’re asking that question is in itself a step toward change. If you’re in 12 step recovery, you probably know about the three As: awareness, acceptance, and action. You’ve got the awareness. Statistically, most people who abuse others never come close to an awareness like yours. It takes courage to admit what you did in your post.
Thank you. Keep asking the question of your therapist. Keep talking about it in 12 step meetings. Those are good ways to maintain awareness — to change.
Thanks again, for posting.
Take care.
Seeif
Seeif, I just realized that I can see your art with your new camera on the yahoo group files! Ooh! I’m excited.
And then maybe I’ll have the energy to finish my painting…which I realize now has to be redone from the background up…it’s so dark…and my theme has changed now…
Seeif,
I am sorry that you had problems with your ex. Sounds like you made the best possible decision getting away from all that. Good for you.
As for me, I changed my number tonight. Enough already. I know that he can find other ways to invade my privacy but at least that’s one more off the checklist.
Sounds like a positive move MovingOn. He is his *own* problem, and you are doing your stuff, taking care of yourself. Changing my phone number was one thing I did which really relieved my anxiety.
Thanks Serenity! I do feel good about the decision. Probably should have done it a while ago, but only recently has he been bothering me in that medium. I could probably file a legal complaint over his obsessive harassments from the past few weeks, but I am hoping continuing to ignore him will make him go away.
Dang, I sure know how to pick ‘em, eh? My water level must have been at zero when I met him. I never realized how wildly unhealthy I was until I got out of the relationship and had time to reflect on everything. A functional person never would have put up with all that I did.
I can take solace in knowing that I have made leaps and strides. He, on the other hand, is still a sick pup and will always be a sick pup. I mean what kind of nutcase basically stalks their ex 2 seasons after the breakup? He is a posterchild for needing meds.
Yeah, don’t give him any sense that he is getting attention from you or controlling you in any way. Give him no feedback.
Hey, Serenity,
I’ve had to do an overload of extrovert stuff this week and am (figuratively) lying in a small ball of quiet introversion in the corner (whew!), but just wanted to say I hope you’re doing O.K. with the Onion of Life process. An arms around for all the ungrieved griefs (still working on this too) and the big changes (oh, so you can’t just change one thing?—NOW they tell us! (-;). You’re so strong and kind for everyone else, I’m probably not the only one pulling for you to find/create the great life you deserve. Just caught a glimpse of the e-mail group a bit ago. It’s similar to posting here, but with ways to contact other members? Is there a regular online meeting time or 24-7 posting as here? MUST… SLEEEEP… but just wanted to send good thoughts your way. Oh, got the Luck book from the library—thanks.
Seeif,
Hi. Good to see your post. I’m reading the Anderson too (thanks Serenity and Newday), working on the house building exercise today. Such a relief to have the biology of things acknowledged! It helps so much to know that all our running around like crazy people—all the desperation and desire to break NC—was just the various predictable stages of loss and detachment.
David Richo’s How to Be an Adult in Relationships is very good too. He talks about how we’re not just grieving the end of the relationship, but the losses we experienced every day while IN it as well, things we never stopped to mourn. This is why it’s so painful. (He says that how it ended IS the real story of what went on all along, except for the initial romance phase, which is designed to obscure the lover’s true character long enough for us to select mates.)
Something interesting that both Susan and Kathy have touched on in other posts: he argues that we should be getting only 25% of our validation/pleasure/meaning from our significant others. The rest should be split among family, friends, work, interests, creative life, and giving back to the world.
Hope you’re good there!
Love to anyone who feels alone tonight. Things will get better if you just hold on and treat yourself with love.
…Yeah… That didn’t much help. I’ve been in my program and in therapy since August 2004, and I only just realized that I’ve ever had any abusive tendencies.
A lot of this site is from the “protect yourself from abusers” standpoint, but is there one someone else knows about for the “stop abusing people, dumbass” standpoint?
Because I honestly have no idea, and I don’t want to hurt anyone else.
Megan:
I’m not sure what you were doing that was abusive. I mean, conniving and wanting sex when he didn’t doesn’t really rise to the level of abuse.
If you’re in therapy and 12 step programs you would have to change if you’re doing the work.
And relationships don’t happen between completely healthy people and really sick people. Just doesn’t happen. So don’t paint him as mr. mental health because I’m sure he had issues.
I didn’t realize I was doing that.
Thanks.
Megan: I’m not being a hardass about this, it sounds like you are being too kind toward him and too unkind toward yourself. I think the truth is somewhere between you’re an abuser and he’s a healthy individual. Try to take a step back. I’m sure you can work on your “character defects” as they call them in 12 step. Do you have a sponsor? Work the steps?
Have you done the Relationship and Life Inventory as suggested on here? they really help.
Hey there, I came across this article while first stubling on the article to the grieving process.
I had to comment simply because I don’t exactly agree with the fact that these abusive men are completely self-centered, but of course it would definitely seem so.
I recently had a great girlfriend who I thought I was having a great time with, we went out all the time, she drove me around the place, and I would joke around with her and tease, and just try and keep it fun. I always had a great time with this girl.
But things eventually started to change, her attitude in my behavior totally changed, she started percieving my jokes as being mean, and our rides and coffee as being controlling, and in that last week, she just bailed.
This was a sudden break up, I was grieving for two days now. I have come to a realization I have lost a great thing.
It’s really just a shame.
After the breakup I was trying to understand why, I was wondering if I was just being weird and creepy, man, I didn’t know what it is. But it wasn’t long till I found out she was getting scared, her complaints was all about early warning signs of an abusive relationship.
Honestly, this came to me by surprise, because I honestly really did fall in love with this girl, but she did not believe it, she felt strongly that I was using her and taking advantage of her. It was really sad, and the shift in this relationship happened all in one week, if I seen it coming, I would totally have listened.
So I’d like to bring out really what lead me to this type of behavior, why I started it in the first place.
My father is an abusive type, he’s just plain terrible, but I never abused a girl in my life, I would hit walls, anything but his another girl, it’s how my mother raised me.
But to be honest, girls really weren’t looking at me, I was invisible. I was just ‘too nice’ and the entire thing didn’t make sense. Girl’s just weren’t attracted to me.
So I eventually met a friend who’s just good with women, and I learned he had struggles with it all his life like I did, so I had to discover. “What’s the secret here?”
So he told me about this dating doctor for guys called David Deangelo who pretty much states girls are just not attracted to wussy “nice guys”. So the object of the game was to toughen up a bit, tease around, and show that I’m living this world for me.
Girls surprisingly noticed this and I was more attractive to them, and I got a few girlfriends, however, as I continued to keep the cocky comedy going, they just seem to fight to take control back, and the relationship aint fun no more, like I said to my last girlfriend “Oh man, this is not funny anymore”
So this really makes me lost now, because granted, girls have control problems just like guys, I’ve learned if I am not the one in control, I am the one that is controlled. This I’ve learned to be a result of too much codependence.
I mean, this is heartbreaking. I don’t really want to be a loser abusive jerk, but if I don’t keep my high standards, things seem to shift and the girl seems to take control and decide what the man should do.
General rule of thumb, people are attracted to leader type characters. So how do I be a leader, without being a controlling abuser, I guess that’s the greatest question of all.
“As for the best leader, the people do not notice their existence…To lead people, walk behind them.”
— Lao Tzu
I hope those who have been or are abused presently will make the steps necessary to leave – and please be safe! Allow me to put my two-cents in regarding this subject from a man’s point of view:
I have never abused anyone in my life, and my family were never were abusive to each other, but I have seen it in my lifetime.
When I was staying with my (female) cousin, preparing for my uncle’s (her father’s) funeral, a neighbor came over with her daughter to get away from her abusive husband. (”He is at it again,” she said.) While she and I were talking, she sensed her husband was nearby, so she and her daughter hid. Then he appeared – drunk and high on drugs – he had a butcher knife in his hand, ready to attack me. I was ready to take him on (I am nonviolent but I am strong), but I felt compelled to protect the woman and her daughter. I convinced that guy I did not know where his family was. He stomped off into the darkness, and the woman and daughter emerged out of hiding. I advised strongly this woman to find a battered women’s shelter as we have them in Kansas City, and surely Seattle has one. To my horror and disbelief, the woman returned to her apartment with her child. My cousin’s apartment shared a common wall, I could hear her. Her husband came back, and I could hear slapping and cursing from him, and then I heard stuff being shattered, the woman weeping and the child crying. I felt helpless. That event took place before cell phones, and I had no access to a phone to call 9-1-1. IT WAS THE WORST TIME OF MY LIFE!
Since that tragic event I studied about the psyche of one who is abused. I used to work as a case manager, but since the agency I worked for was small and had an all-male staff, I offered to talk to women and advocate for them. Before we got started in a session, I always began: “I am as danergous as a marshmallow.” This seemed to resonate with them. I must have a “sixth sense” of sorts because I can usually tell when a woman has been abused or I can spot an abuser because, in my opinion, an abuser is (usually) “overly” nice. One even told me women “deserve” to be abused, nudging me in the side with a boys-will-be-boys mindset, but I told him nobody but nobody deserves this fate. One woman told me my sixth sense might come from the fact it does not jive with my attitude of nonviolence does not fit my mindset. Perhaps. However, I am not perfect, and sometimes I miss it sometimes when a woman was or is abused.
Before I became a case manager, I used to work with a woman who was verbally and emtionally abusive to me. Every day she would castigate me. We did meet an Employee Assistance Manager, and she admitted her negative behavior towards me, and she promised to stop. Her nonverbal body language told me otherwise as her arms and legs were crossed and her head looking down, no direct eye contact. My assumption was correct because she continued yellying at me and attempted to make my life a living hell. At first, she thought I must have something wrong with me psychologically, and I visited the therapist she selected, but his findings were in my favor, not hers. Them, she thought something must be wrong physically – I was in pretty good shape then as I ran ten miles daily – and, again, that doctor found nothing (major) wrong. That supervisor tried to remove me from my job, but I resigned instead. I found-out shortly thereafter she might have been abused by her husband – a light came on to me that I was just a scapegoat, explaining why she vented and playing emotional games with me. So, I missed it, that she might be abused and my sixth sense did not work in that case.
Despite all this, I implore – with all my heart and soul -you who have been are currently being abused: PLEASE, PLEASE GET OUT! AND BE SAFE!
S,
Thanks S for sharing your story. Workplace abuse, especially the covert abuse which you experienced, is one of the giant elephants in all of our livingrooms. But thankfully, people like you are speaking up, and out.
The thing about covert abuse is that it is insidious. Often, it’s not even as overt as verbal abuse. It’s more the non-verbal abuse that takes its toll on its victims.
Also, emotional or psychological abuse is an equal opportunity violence that does not discriminate according to gender, class, ethnic, religious, or race.
In my personal experience, I’ve been subjected to this kind of abuse equally, by both men and women. In some ways– going out on a limb here — I’d say that more women may be overlooked for the emotional abuse they perpetrate, because of this misguided assumption that men are “the abusers”. And, while it may be statistically true that men perpetrate more physical abuse, I’d bet, if studies were done, they’d find it more 50-50 for emotional and psychological manipulation.
Good for you for going to employee assistance. I did that years ago. I was being supervised by a woman who was engaging in crazy-making, and ultimately spirit-shattering behavior toward me. Like you, I was lucky in the sense that I saw an EMP counselor who not only empathized with me but told me that she’d had a similar experience when she’d interned at a residential treatment center. (This was one situation where I was glad the counselor self-disclosed.)
One last thing. It does helps me to understand what makes people behave as they do, including abusers. However, that information in no way prevents me from condemning that behavior. And it is no excuse for them to continuing doing it nor should it prevent them from suffering the consequences of their behavior. And, most emphatically, it’s NEVER,EVER a reason for me to STAY to be continually abused by this person (or organization.)
My motto with sick people like this is: may I have compassion at a distance.
I resigned my job, too, because of this kind of scapegoating. But, I feel I shouldn’t have had to. Unfortunately, until companies really confront this and recognize it, the victims will continue to bear the consequences.
I was studying to be a social worker but left the program. Had I stayed I would have liked to have worked as a consultant in organizations( including behavioral health) teaching the “professionals” about verbal abuse: what it looks like, and how profounding damaging it can be to the souls of the victims…and to the companies that allow it.
It’s something that society as a whole continues to brush under the rug. And, more power to people like you who have the courage to say, “This is happening to me…it’s unacceptable…and it’s got to stop!”
Thanks again, S.
Dear Seeif,
Thank you for responding to my post. I had to walk away from a good-paying job and 15 years of Federal service. That supervisor might have been jealous of me (as you use the term “covet” abuse), but I doubt it. I believe she was flat-out mean and used me for a scapegoat because I was the only male in our department, and she could not get back at her husband. He had a plum job. Plus, she was born with a silver spoon in her mouth and was from an affluent area, and I bet she used her parents’ wealth to attempt to influence others – It did not work with me because my parents were also well-to-do, but they never exploited that.
I was advised to read the M. Scott Peck book “People of the Lie.” (Dr. Peck is well-known for his book “The Road Less Traveled.”) That book really hit home with me – Some people project an image of being nice when in reality it is horrible because of the abuser and the abused.
What bothered me is my (female) co-workers did not intervene, perhaps watching their own hides. However, one was an Equal Employment Opportunity Counselor, and I thought she would see what was going on, but I suspect she chose to ignor it. That is why I suggested that supervisor and me visit with the Employee Assistance Program Manager, but he was merely a facilitator.
As I wrote in my post, that supervisor promised to treat me better and work closely with me, but she grew more hostile. I suspect I was the first one in her life to call her on her nasty behavior. I felt something had to be done for my career, but it backfired in me. She wanted to remove me from Federal service and drew-up a “laundry list” of her reasons why, and I rebutted to every one and added a few of my own. I was offered another job at five grades lower than my old job, and I resigned, considering that offer unacceptable. As far as I know, nothing was done to that supervisor for her behavior – I expected that.
You see, I have a disability, and that supervisor refused to make “reasonable accommodations,” as per the Americans with Disabilities Act (a new law when all this was happening), and even tried to curry favor with my former co-workers by suggesting she had a similar disability to my own.
Now you see why I work in the field of case management and education of people with disabilities. I do not desire to see my brothers and sisters – members of the disability community – encounter the same things I experienced. I also learned people with disabilities are a major population group who fall victim of abuse because the abusers think they are weak. In my case: Guess again.
Thank you again for responding to my post. I look forward to your (and others’) insights. I wish there was a way we could exchange e-mails, but considering the sensitivity of the issue of abuse, I understand and respect the requirements of this website.
Scott (a/k/a “S”)
Dear Seeif,
I am sorry. I meant “covert” abuse, but “covet” abuse could have applied, too. :)
Scott
Scott,
It does not surprise me that your supervisor was MORE hostile after you confronted her. One thing I’ve learned about abuse that has helped me as I confront it is abuse is progressive: it either becomes more frequent, more varied, or more intense(or all three)-it does not stop by itself Often, it does get worse after the victim confronts the abuser. I saw that happen with my supervisor after I met with her and her supervisor – and I was prepared for it. Knowing that the abuse would continue, and go further underground, I realized my only option – to save my sanity – was to get out. It was quite traumatizing though. ( My supervisor’s boss didn’t “get it” about abuse continuing;or, the need to mete out significant consequences to my supervisor.)
Not too long ago I read an article about how people who are abused, subtlely or not so subtlely, on the job can experience the same post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) others experience in domestic violence. I feel that was true for me. I welcomed this article because I believe many people have suffered – long after they’ve left an abusive work situation.
Yes, the Americans with Disabilities Act is a great law, and was fought for for many years. I fear it is misunderstood much as the law against sexual harassment has been. Many egregious offenses took place before those laws were enacted. Unfortunately, there’s still so much misinformation about both.
One last note, I read somewhere that three-quarters of whistleblowers suffer from depression because of how they are shunned by their employers and co-workers, even if the whistleblower brings to light wrongdoing that’s caused suffering to the people doing the shunning.
Thanks for your post. We need to keeping sharing our experiences about these things.
Dear Seeif,
Thanks again! There is something else I did not share, but it was a telling comment about that boss I have been describing. I resigned around Christmas. The last image I saw of that supervisor was with our boss, walking to some meeting. They were walking down the hallway, away from me. I thought I would do the right thing (even though in my heart of hearts I thought my immediate supervisor was evil and manipulative – even to convince our biss she was in the right and I was wrong) and wished them a Merry Christmas. Instead of turning around, they just kept walking.
I am sad because I had a pretty good career going, only to be derailed by that woman. However, if there is a “silver lining,” I directed myself in a new career in which I can do more fore others.
Thanks for the insight of the abuser becoming more hostile. In that supervisor’s case, she just grew more distant emtionally (which I anticipated – Now, I do not expect a boss to be “buddy-buddy” with a co-worker, but a good supervisor should mentor and tap into the skills and talents his or her employees have), and failed to assist me (as promised).
To this day, about 16 years later, I suspect she was more angry at me because I called her on her terrible behavior, and she planned it so I would fail. I am still confused how upper management (I was considered middle management) could not see it. Perhaps they chose not to see it.
I wish you well, Seeif, as I have read your other posts. Great stuff. You are a remarkable person. May God bless you!
Scott
Dear Seeif,
I gotta learn to proofread my posts! Sorry all! :)
Scott
Thanks, Scott. I wish you well, too. I’m sorry you lost a career that was important to you. But not only are you helping people in your new career you may be helping countless others by telling your story here. Telling the truth … breaking the silence is very, very powerful. This is a place where sharing who you are may change another’s thinking in an instant!
Isn’t it amazing to consider that?
Dear Seeif,
If I can save the life of just one abused person from my story (actually the event I described what happened to me in Seattle was much more horrific), then I will be pleased I am able to help in my little way.
Scott
I have been dating the same guy for over three years now. At first he was so shy and did the sweetest things for me. Writing me poems, notes, buying me presents, taking me on dates. As soon as high school hit, he started getting to know other girls and it boosted his confidence, a little to much. He has cheated on me numerous times and has lied to me to many times to count. I fell in love with one guy, but then lost him to a lying and very abusive person. He has verbally abused me calling me every possible word and has even turned to physical abuse. He doesn’t let me talk to hardly anyone and he will not tolerate other guys even liking me or complimenting me. He constantly checks my cell phone and wants to know everywhere I am, with whom, when I will be home. I have to text him back every 5 minutes or he calls me accusing me of cheating. In the past year we have dated and broken up about 12 times. The pressure and stress is to much for me to handle. We are now broken up and he always wants to ignore me for months, then drag me back. I know ALL the terrible things he has done, yet I still love him. My head is terrified of him and wants to run, but my heart is still in love. I am at a point in life where I know whatever my decision is, it will affect me and my future family. How do I get COMPLETELY away from him? I have heard of people moving on, but I don’t know what the next step is.
Please help.
My wife uses emotional abusive techniques to control me and others around her. She seems to create drama out of nothing..leading to anxiety, crying, yelling and anger during basic familly events (bedtime, bathtime,leaving the house). When she is out of the house for the evening, the familly drama seems to vanish into thin air and the kids relax.
I’m continually trying to stick up for my personal time and my person ego. I also have to stick up for my extended familly who are ridiculed at every opportunity. My wife is a master at sabotaging my interactions with friends and familly. There never is a good time to spend time with anyone other than her and our kids. She is always upset that she is not always at the top of my list 100% of the time. My response is that she demands to be at the top at the most opportune times to suit her controlling needs. I’ve been irrationally accused of affairs to limit my interactions with women. I’ve been accused of homosexuality for giving a guy in the neighborhoud a ride to work one day.
My wife has also ignored my desire to stop at 3 children. She has tried to confuse the situation by disregarding the numerous times I stated stopping at 3…..and holds onto the one time 3 years ago contemplating 4. She has tried her best in the bedroom to get pregnant and fortunately I’ve been able to control myself to her anger and frustration. I’ve been threatened “with some humour” that she will have to find a guy to do the job. Eventually I planned a vasectomy and she panicked . I gave her 3 weeks to absorb the idea and that only created 3 weeks of stress to halt the procedure. Leading up to the procedure I was threatened with embarassment since I didn’t get her approval. I was also threatened with divorce if I went ahead with the vasectomy.
I went ahead with the vasectomy (37 yrs old with 3 beautiful daughters) and my wife exploded with emotion telling me we are getting a divorce. She said she wanted to meet another guy as soon as possible to get pregnant. After 4 days of the constant attacks I eventually feel into depression/anxiety.
I told her to consider we have an very nice home in a great neighborhoud. 3 great kids. I have a very good job and financially we are lucky she is able to stay at home. Her response was that her divorcing me was my fault and if we had a 4th child we wouldn’t be in this mess.
On the 4th day of anxiety I finally said I needed to get away for a week. My wife’s attacks immediately stopped and she fell to the ground in tears begging me not to leave her. I had to leave to overcome my depression. Pills help. Counselling helps but more importantly..my familly flew into town to sort out a place to sleep…Doctor appointments…counselling appointments etc. (brother, sister and parents). I always knew I could count on my familly…I just didn’t think it would come to this. Imagine not being able to rely on your wife for support (depression) … because she was more interested in hurting me.
My wife is emotionally destroyed with my decision to not stay at home for a while. She is terrified that I’ll file for divorce. I’m not their yet Need to try counselling first.
We are now in the part of the cycle where the abuse is minimized. She promises not to do it again. My anxiety has dropped off a bit. She says she loves me. She says she’s sorry. She says the kids miss me. She says that I also made mistakes that need to be resolved. She says I should have told her to shut up that terrible weekend. She will say anything for me not to leave her. Any communication makes her feel better because she wants me to make amends. She denies her hurtful techniques to control me. She tries to make me feel crazy.
It is so HARD to not go home.
My plan is to get better on my own by staying at friends and perhaps rent a room somewhere. I need to learn more about depression and emotional abuse. My wife is starting to see a counsellor and I am doing the same. After this summer I will try marriage counselling with my wife. I will try to spend as much time as possible with the kids to reassure them and explain when necessary.
I also won’t make any life changing decisions untill I get my depression sorted out.
Wish me and my familly luck.
hi im very much impress with this article…
i hope that you can enlightened me with the topics especially in domestic violence
Not just the majority of abusers are men. I think you are wrong in this point. Men do physical abuse, and women emotional one.
I pacifically resisted the abuse. For sometime my ex-girlfriend couldn’t hurt me anymore, because I transformed myself into a mute stone, I held fast for 4 long months.
She stopped feeling fun in the abuse, and later dismissed me. It was one of the most gross acts I witnessed in my three decades life. She invited all my family for a lunch, and kicked me out, in front of everyone, as I was a piece of trash.
It was hard to accept, still I feel like killing myself. She didn’t gave me an unique oportunity of talking about.
That’s it, pacific resistance. She got repented, she is alone, and will be, as I prophesized her. I never used violence, never used harsh words, did everything to please her, and humiliated myself trying to please her infinite desires.
Certainly, I could be the dream of many women while doing this, many of them would be content and satisfied with my smile. But the truth is that she abused her parents, how in Hell would I imagine she wouldn’t abuse me, in the first place?
That’s it! It is sexist and preconceptuous to think of women as victims, they are as perpetrators as men are. You should think if sometimes you are not taking revenge on your new husband about things the other one did to you.
It is absolute data that men do the majority of physical abuse. It is NOT absolute data that women that women do the majority of emotional abuse. In fact, I would say that most abusers, physical and emotional, are men. And that’s not sexist, it’s fact. That is not to say that women aren’t physical abusers and many more ARE emotional abusers, but it does not split 50/50.
And as for “taking revenge” on my “new” husband, I think not. He’s too healthy to put up with anything like that and I’m too healthy to exact anything.
Just because you have been abused by one woman does not make all women abusers or does not mean that the abuse splits 50/50 (men physical and women emotional).
My post had ONE reference to men and it was this: “Abuser’s remorse is when this critical, controlling, angry person gets the hint that he (it’s usually a he, I’m not picking on you guys) ….” and the rest of the article was about ME and the person I was married to. It’s not a sexist article when it’s true.
Bring me data that says that MOST emotional abuse happens by women and I’ll change my post. Until then, I will not. Again, this is not to say that there are not women who are not physical and emotional abusers (both my birth and adoptive mothers were both), but the majority of abuse still comes from men.
I have just found out that a dear friend has been in an abusive marriage for 25 years. She is 58 years old. What do I suggest to her – how can she get out at this age? Money is an issue – SHE doesn’t seem to have much.
He sounds like a monster – suggestions on how to help her?
I had no idea as she kept it well-hidden. She has only shared the emotional abuse part – I don’t think there is physical abuse. Is it possible to start over at her age with low self-esteem and 25 years of this degradation?
Bebe,
Emotional abuse can kill you. Abuse is abuse is abuse.
Yes, it is possible to start over at any age. In Patricia Evans’ book “Survivors of Verbal Abuse Speak Out” women in their 60s and 70s who got out of their verbally abusive marriages and began recovery tell their stories.
One way you can help is to learn what you can about emotional and verbal abuse and its insidiousness. Patricia Evans’ other book, “The Verbally Abusive Relationship,” has lots of information about different types of verbal abuse. The thing about verbal abuse is that it’s so prevalent in our society, and often so subtle, people – including the victims – often discount it, or explain it away.
Your friend is lucky to have you as a friend.
One word of caution though, be prepared for your friend’s denial and defense of her husband. Abuse victims’ denial is second only to the denial of the people who are abusing them.
The relationship of victims to their abusers has been compared to prisoners-of-war and their captors. It’s really a kind of brainwashing, if you will.
I think the analogy is quite accurate.
For now, it may just be you who is having the “aha” moments.
Good luck.
am 29 and for 11 yrs (married 7), I was with a borderline/narcissist who was manipulate, controlling, mean, abusive, stole, lied, addicted to sexual chat lines, etc. After finding out he was going to meet a stranger he had talked to on the chatline to have sex, I left. This is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I am still having a very hard time not going back to him, I just can’t understand why. How could you miss someone who treated you so bad? I am now with a wonderful man but still can’t be happy. He is giving, loving, successful, etc but I am trying to push him away for no reason. I left over 9 mths ago but things had gotten really bad the last year. How can my ex have such a hold on me? Was this really love or was it just a co-dependant thing on my part. It really feels like love. I really love my new bf but the sexual attraction isn’t there and I don’t know if it’s from my ex always looking for sexual stuff everywhere else or what. I just want some peace!!! please help!!
I was in an abusive (emotional and physical) for about 10 years. Like you, Susan, I had 3 kids and no job and left. It was the best thing I ever did. I am now in a very loving, healthy relationship with a wonderul, non-abusive husband. BUT….what is killing me is that my ex and I have 50/50 placement of our children which means I still have to deal with him on a regular basis. My oldest now refuses to go to his house (he’s been remarried for several years now) and the other 2 spend more time here than there. I am turmoiled because my fear of him still reigns. It prevents me from asking for fairness in our arrangements. He takes advantage of the fact that the kids spend more time over here, therefore, me having more of the financial burden. Since our placement is 50/50, our financial arrangement is to pay 1/2 of the kids expenses. I always get the short end of the stick and because I can’t afford a good lawyer to take him to court, he knows he can always take advantage of me. How do I get past the fear? We have been divorced now for over 11 years!!!! And I still fear him when it comes to asking for my fair share. And of course, I don’t want the kids to think that they are not welcome here on his time and therefore can’t eat or take showers, etc. How do I get past my past????
I just had to share my experience. My ex boyfriend was extremely controlling. One night he was out at the movies with his friends and I didn’t have my phone right next to me so I missed his call. (I used to carry my phone around like a pacifier afraid I would miss his call.) When I saw the missed call, I called him right back. He immediately accused me of being out with a girlfriend. I told him that I was not and that I was at home. Before I knew it he had left in the middle of the movie and came by my house to see if I was really there. That should have been a huge red flag right there. Of course I thought it was insane but I still stayed. Also, sometimes if he didn’t believe I was at home he would have me jingle my dog’s collar or make my cat meow. I was always feeling guilty for things I shouldn’t have. He wanted me to be ok with him going out with his friends but he expected me to sit at home and have no life.
Hello,
I recently came out of a four year relationship with someone who had a lot of abusive qualities to his personality. While I can’t say that I relate to everything that was written, the basic tone/concept is something that really struck a nerve with me.
I felt for a long time that I was being abused. To be perfectly honest with you, though, I questioned whether or not I was overreacting. I suppose that I was one of the people who went back-and-forth, in my mind, between “he’s a wonderful man, I love him so much” to “he’s really hurting me, he’ll never change.”
Reflecting on the past few years, one of the main signs of of my abuse was the fact that I was afraid to “cross my ex in the wrong way” for fear of him screaming at me (at the top of his lungs). So, I sensored my thoughts, my feelings, my actions, and the words that I spoke out loud. But there were other related signs as well, such as constant lies, deception, blame, avoidance, threats of breaking up if i didn’t change, and (as it goes) control issues.
I wasn’t the one who put an end to everything (which I feel is unfortunate and I regret, because I should have). In fact, he broke up with me through an e-mail. I loved him very much, so I was (of course) in a state of shock, but also extremely hurt by that things that he had written. It ranged from past issues that we had (which I found myself apologizing for over and over again, never being forgiven) to him accusing me of locking him into the relationship.
I don’t really feel that I had the chance to say my peace, partly because it wasn’t a face-to-face break-up and partly because my ex said that he wouldn’t listen to what I said. I managed to get some things out, though, which I suppose was better than nothing. One of my main points was that I wouldn’t fight him on breaking up and I wouldn’t beg him to stay with me, because we had similar moments in the past via phone) and I had promised myself that I wouldn’t stoop to that level ever again. And…Whether it was right or wrong, I called my ex a coward and I said that I felt used in the relationship (I will admit that didn’t know exactly why I felt used, I just felt it. I was called on this, too, and I was asked to explain. I never had the chance, but I did sit and think about it. What I have come up with is…I know that I was definitely feeling like I was used as my ex’s aggression release…and I know that I was used as an excuse for WHATEVER). This all struck a nerve with my ex, and it sent him on his last tangent. I think that he was angry that I didn’t fight the break-up, that I finally had the guts to say things that he didn’t want to hear, and, probably, that I had a point to what I said.
Sometimes, I wish that I would’ve had the courage to say to his face, “you’re abusive, and I can’t be with you anymore,” but I can’t go back and change my own actions. I will say that I, often times, find myself breathing a sigh of relief that the drama has ended.
All I can hope is that, next time, I’ll know what to watch for. And, if I feel like I’m not being respected or I feel uncomfortable, I’ll have the guts to walk away.
I am going through a huge mess. I have been with my controlling husband for 13 years. When we met i was coming out of a physically/emotionally abusive relationship and had zero self esteem. My now husband was my Knight In Shining armour..he picked me up and set me right…now years later, I am more confident, but have been increasingly unhappy with his controlling ways….have told him many times…but he never took it seriously that i was so unhappy. Then an unrequited love from my youth contacted me…telling me he had never stopped loving me or thinking of me…i fell for him…hard…we spent months emailing, and our love intensified….he also is married unhappily. We met once, and made love. Last month our relationship was discovered. He decided he would prefer to live out his life committed to his marriage despite saying his love for me will go with him to the grave. My husband is grief stricken at nearly losing me, and has had the wake up call he needed. We are in councelling. I am left, with my love for my husband regrowing…i am excited about our future togtether…but still missing and grieving the other man.I feel like i have noone to talk to, as I have had an affair, and should be purely focussed on my husband.
Has anyone else had their abuser call the police on them during an argument as a way to control you? I had this happen to me and the police cooporated in treating me horribly also. He lied to them about what I did and they treated me like a criminal.
I also found out that I am not the only woman he has called the police on in the past also. I never had any problems with the police in my life before! Now I am a “bad” person who constantly needs to be “remorseful” to him for things he said I did.
I am now ashamed that I have a police report written up about me and am tramatized how badly the police treated me that night. I am now afraid of police as to where before I thought they were here to protect me.
I have just realized that he has been using this to control me by making me feel guilty and ‘bad”. He always acts like he is the abused one.
Anyone else experience this?
Hi Honey,
If you have not left this man, then I suggest you do it.
Do not wait until you are years down the track, it does not get easier.
We all deserve to be with a partner who treats us as an EQUAL, and with RESPECT…ALWAYS.
Take care, Rachael.
Honey, i have zero experience of anything like this but i second Rachel’s advice. Just stop. Stop putting yourself in this situation. Stop playing his game. Stop and get out.
Good luck x
I wonder why we ever put up with any kind of abuse…
I am realising now, that my relationships have all been abusive in one way or another…
girls (and guys) …DONT TAKE IT! Just get out. (SAFELY)
It is better to be alone and a complete person, than with a partner who is tearing away at your soul…
Honey: please get out now. Calling the police is just his way of saying to you “See? I GOT YOU!!!”
That is the lowest of the low and you need to get out and take care of yourself!
Just chiming in….per Patricia Evans (I think…I’ve read so much on this recently, it’s all running together in my head, could’ve been Lundy Bancroft or Steven Stozny), most emotional abusers are male. Yes, there ARE female emotional/verbal abusers, but it’s rare, b/c women are tough to separate from their own emotional “core”. That’s a prerequisite for the lack of compassion required for doling out abuse.
Having said that, Evans (I think – again, see above) also has indicated that the few female verbal/emotional abusers she’s encountered were nigh unto impossible to treat. She theorizes that this is because the sheer force required to create that emotional schizm – sufficient to trump even the cultural imperative that we be the “feelers” of the species – creates so much damage in women, it’s nearly impossible to undo. Just in case anybody’s interested.
Th ex called the police on me. In fact, he set me up for it deliberately.
This was calculated abuse on his part. What I didn’t realize is that they know full well that if they push you to the point of hysteria, it will look to the uninformed outsider as if YOU are the “crazy” one. I didn’t want to accept that. I told myself he just somehow went temporarily “out of control”.
If you think they “can’t control themselves”, think about this: how many abusers are perfectly capable of STOPPING their punches when there’s an officer of the law in the driveway?
Funny. They can control themselves at work, too.
Well, you may say (I know I certainly did), it’s just ME that sets him off. Really? Then how come he can control himself just fine when he’s out with you in public?
Verbal, emotional, or physical abusers KNOW that what they’re doing is wrong. Otherwise they wouldn’t “know” to only do it behind closed doors.
Boy. That one sort of scotched any other arguments I had that it was “involuntary” or “accidental”. It was neither. Ouch.
PS. Fun fact: you can actually get addicted to YOUR OWN brain chemicals in an abusive relationship. Yes. B/C you adapt to the cycle of abuse. The chemicals your body dumps into your brain in order to deal with the stress of recovering from the abusive phase of the cycle are insanely potent, much more so than heroin. Like Pavlov’s dog, it is possible to actually beging to anticipate these “reward” chemicals during the tension-building phase of the cycle of abuse.
This is why you can experience self-sabotage even once you’re OUT. There’s stress, alright, but no abusive incident is forthcoming. So we’ll create some OTHER drama to get the “feel good” chemical dump….then beat up on ourselves for being “drama junkies”. The good news is, nutrition, physical care, and STAYING OUT of abuse extinguish the response. Calm becomes the “norm”, with no unconscious jonesing for the post drama “fix”. I really, REALLY wish this had been known a long time ago. Sharing it here b/c when I learned this, I could give myself a break and recognize I was NOT irretrievably “crazy”. I was just “de-toxing”. It helped to know that. A lot.
Oh God;
Thank You so much…
Reading these post hit home. My abuse started as a child, which turn into adult hood. Married a Jerk (I thought love at the time) twelve years older than me, because home was hell. Well after 23 years of more hell and a closet alcoholic.
I finally realized (and after he kicked me in the eye) I deserve better.
first step: AA
Second: love me.
Thanks again
Glad you are here Betty Please stay close and be good to you.
Totally agree with the ’splitting’ idea. Just left an abusive relationship with a three month old baby, whom he was holding the last time he twisted my arm back. Now I am fighting him for custody.
Am still questioning how someone could be so ‘Jekel and Hyde’ it’s hard for me to understand since I am pretty straight forward and honest with my feelings.
I say what I mean, and that is something I could never receive from my ex, his opinions would change and loyalties at the drop of a hat depending on who was listening to the story or who he needed to impress.
I will not let my son become an abuser, as my ex came from a long line of them. BREAK THAT CYCLE…these boys grow up to become men that will continue on if we do not stand up.
Thanks for the empowering article.
Amy
My friend has been in an extremely abusive relationship,and I have been trying to “help” her. She calls me often, crying and telling me of all of the sometimes physical,but mostly psycholgical and manipulative things that her husband of 20 years does to her. Because I really have not had to live in her shoes,and because I really do love and care about her..it hurts me very much to listen to what she has been allowing this man to do to her.
She has a 17 y.o. son with Down’s syndrome, a married 22 y.o. daughter,and two children under the age of 13 now. Her 13 y.o. daughter has tried to make her understand that their life is being affected by all of the verbal, physical and psychological abuse. The husband screams at the top of his lungs, does all of the “blame” game, jeckyl and hyde and no doubt, has the N.P. disorder.
She lives in chaos,fear and both of her parents are deceased,as is her only brother. I have been her friend for many years,and the abuse seems to be getting worse.
We have just endured a horrible hurricane here in Louisiana,and a big tree fell onto their house, and believe it or not, her husband told her it was “all your fault”, for it seems that everything that happens is her fault. He is totally unrational,and I fear that he is crazy enough to actually kill her. He doesn’t want her to have any friends, is totally controlling,and she works,yet does not have access to any money..she has to ask him for any and all monies for anything. If she needs gas money,she has to beg him for it.
After reading all of these posts, I now know that I am powerless to help her. I have tried to tell her that she needs to see an attorney,as she has been to therapists to no avail. They went to a “christian” therapist who was very immature. His way of manipulation and charm is insidious..and everyone thinks that he is a “great guy”.
We used to actually go out socially with this couple,but now my husband refuses to go out with them, since my friend’s crazy husband called me a bad name.
Another friend suggested that I stop being friends with this 42 yo woman,but I can’t turn my back on her…she will not listen to any practical advice…even after she gets kicked in the thigh with his steel toed boots..she just takes lots of abuse..and is totally controlled by this monster.
As a friend, I have told her to join a support group…her husband knows her email password, and she and I hardly have any normal conversations any more. She is so focused on pleasing her husband..and if she doens’t walk on eggshells, she lives in total chaos. I could write a book on the stories that she has told me. She didn’t even share any of this with me until about 2 years ago. I have no idea how she could have held back for that long.
My question is..how does one actually deal with this..as a friend, when she clearly hopes that he will change..and his behavior is getting more intense.He tells her every day all of those hateful and abusive things,and she says that he tells her that he “despises” or hates her. Then she asks me if my husband slaps me hard when we have sex..and when I told her “that’s abuse”..she kind of acts like she didn’t even ask me anything. She has the book “Boundaries” and “Safe People”,but won’t take the time to read anything. Help ! I want her to wake up..I can see the forest for the trees,but she can’t. Cathy in Louisiana.
Stick by her Cathy,
Maybe one day she will listen, and she is going to need you big time.
I put up with abuse (nothing like what you describe) under the advice of Christian counsel- i was told I have no rights as a wife and that I should be more like Jesus and turn the other cheek. What rubbish.
Reading this site and getting a wider perspective has shown me that abuse is never ok.
Your friend is lucky to have you.
cath:
First, please know that I find it to be VERY COMPASSIONATE, HONORABLE, and LOVING OF YOU to want to be there for your friend :)
FORTUNATELY for your friend, I think you’ve done all you can do in regards to EDUCATING her about her situation and giving her the TOOLS she can use to change her situation.
You’ve also shown her that you care about her and my hunch is that you are REINFORCING with her how much of a valuable and deserving human being she is.
So, now – though it may leave you feeling incredibly frustrated and powerless – it is all up to HER to take the next right step for herself and her children.
That said, I’m finding myself wanting to lovingly and compassionately address YOU.
In my opinion (may not be the popular one, I know) I’d like to suggest you take a look at what you are getting out of being in this situation with her:
What areas of your own life could you be neglecting by putting energy into this situation instead of redirecting your energy toward yourself?
What would you make it mean about you if you are not able to help your friend want to change? And why would you make it mean X, Y, Z about you?
In what ways do you find yourself mimicking her behavior in your life, e.g. are you putting up with bad behavior (not necessarily on the same intense scale as her abuse) in some aspect of your own life?
What is the next right step for you to take regardless of what it may mean for your friend?
I know these may seem like harsh or bizarre (or both) questions to ask, but they put the focus squarely back on what you can control – YOU…
And though it can leaving you feeling badly to not do more for your friend (aside from being a safe, loving, supportive haven and patient with her), when you do put the focus back on you, you teach her how to live a healthier life BY EXAMPLE.
After all, you are a very loving and worthwhile person too – one who deserve compassion, understanding and gentleness from the world and HERSELF.
So please LOVE YOURSELF by putting the focus back on you by recognizing what it is you can control (deciding what is good for you in your life) and then taking that next right step no matter how scary (or selfish) it may seem.
Again, this is just my two cents, so take what works for YOU and leave the rest behind…
Many hugs to you, your friend, and her children,
SmilingAngel
I am losing my mind. I finally have the chance to leave my abuser and am not taking the steps needed to get out. The chance has been quite frankly, handed to me.
I’ve been through it all: I’ve been told I am overreacting, that I am a mental patient, that I need psychiatric help ( for wanting to talk about say RESPONSIBILITY around the house). I have been cheated on, walked out on, drinks smacked out of my hands. One time, he told me he was going to kill me because he thought I was cheating. It turns out he was cheating, and had started cheating on me only 17 days after proposing to me. He has held me down and spit in my face, and one time actually stuck his tongue out at me like a two year old.
He NEVER talks about anything. I am not allowed to talk about things. He will roll over and say he is going to bed, walk out or become angry. And again, this is over stuff like “please pick up the trash on the way home from work”. He will take any innocent, trivial, VALID issue I/we have and completely ignore it, telling me I am nuts and then he will go 10,000 miles around the original issue.
He tells me I am abusive. He has threatened to leave if I don’t “stop it”. He knows he would be financially hurting me and the kids who AREN’T his thank god, but their father isn’t in their life either at all. His ex told me he did all the same too.
He has done SO many crazy things to me, I can no longer find reality and the sickest part of all is that I still love him. I started to act out after a while and really put my foot down at what he was doing and I admit, I went nuts myself. It only made him worse.
I have no opinion, no voice, no nothing. For what? He will just shoot it down. I am always wrong. He will sit there and say “oh you are ALWAYS right, its all about YOU”, when really I only wanted to ask why he didn’t come to bed on time, etc.
The thing that gets me the most is HIM saying I Need help! Him saying I am the abuser. Oh yeah, I have flat out smacked him for saying nasty horrible stuff, like the night he told me he would never make me cry again. I cried a sigh of relief and told him thank you. He looked at me and laughed and said “hahah, just joking Byatch”. Yeah, I smacked him for that. I have become someone I hate as well.
I have this opportunity to move 1800 miles away with someone else, just take my kids up and leave, with a man who I fully trust, have known for over a year and a half and have met and spent time with. Someone who’s ex’s doesn’t TELL YOU “um he’s abusive” like my current. His ex’s have said he is not, he’d never be. This guy is reality, and is giving me a chance to get out. I am sick ( chronic MS) and cannot just UP and leave on my own, but it is so tempting to move those 1800 miles away with my kids.
He once told my 9 year old daughter that she did not deserve a kiss. Called my 17 year old niece a slut, etc. He is never here for me emotionally or otherwise, not even through my illness. All that is in it for him is a place to live and sex, thats it. Well, I am losing my home anyways and have to leave in 5 months and find another place. I want to go to this other state but only ONE thing is stopping me: I still love this freaking idiot, no matter what he does to me. I just don’t want to feel the pain of loss anymore.
I have gone from independent, funny, quick witted, cash in hand to sick, dependent, depressed and isolated and I have a chance to change all that, with NO romantic gestures involved, just getting me better and getting me safe. I have NO family here where I live that can help me and as I said, my kids father is not in the picture and has said I can take them wherever I want to. I generally fear risk in my life anyways, but this is not a family. This is his show. he runs this show. We can only feel how HE lets us.
He has made ME BELIEVE I am the one that needs help, that I am the abuser. Once, when I did leave him, he took a whole bunch of medication and wrote a suicide note. That was the last time I tried to leave him.
He is nuts. He is absolutely insane. Or is it me? I should be happy and thrilled that I have a way out with a human being that is NOT an abuser. Instead, I am scared to take that step but I need to. The only one here I would miss is my mother. Thats IT. I have no friends, I lost them ALL.
Everytime he is nice, I think “ok maybe” and I change myself so as to not set him off. In other words- just let him go, let him not take responsibility, let him play his VIDEO GAMES, don’t mention him leaving his stuff around the house, don’t ask him to go GET me something. As long as I stay complacent and quiet, everything is FINE. But when that person in me says “ok you know what, this is NOT right” he goes back to being that abusive idiot.
I don’t know what to do. Should I take this chance and move away? When will these feelings that “But I love him” go away? He sat in my face the other day and said “you are abusive. I HATE YOU. You disgust me. You need help. I am leaving. I do not LOVE you” and instead of me saying “how could you say that” or being HURT that he said he did not love me, ALL I could think was “why right now? With the house and having to move, and the finances, how will I make it???”. I knew I would MISS him, but I NEED him financially. I didn’t care about the love aspect. Perhaps I do not love him and this will be so much more easier than what I expected. I think I realized this was enough A LONG time ago and have just been here, just merely existing planning my OWN way out.
But now I don’t have to plan my own way out. Now, it is being handed to me. I am so confused.
JustAGirl,
you do have a choice. We all have choices, no matter what.
If someone threatens to kill you, that is going more than overboard. By staying in such an unhealthy relation, you are making yourself (and probably your kids) sick and will continue to do so.
It is up to you to decide. My take is that you leave him and get some professional help to deal with it all.
One more thing on “Everytime he is nice, I think “ok maybe” and I change myself so as to not set him off.” – well, there have to be times when he is “nice” to keep you in the game, but do YOU want to continue playing it?
Seriously. The details here do not matter much (I think). Has he threatened to kill you? That is all I need to know in order to say “GET OUT. NOW.”
JustAGirl,
You know what you need to do. Even if you think the devil you know is better than the one you don’t, your children deserve better, don’t they? Could you do it for them initially and then address the stuff inside you once you are out of the craziness? We all have our own time table inside of us. Maybe you need to go through more abuse before you are ready to get out. Whatever you decide, there are people willing to help. As you know, this site is a wonderful resource. I hope you will be good to yourself and do what you need to do.
JustAGirl:
Unfortunately no one else – not me, not anyone else on this forum, not your mom, etc. – NO ONE can make this decision for you.
YOU need to decide if you have hit bottom with your current partner.
Once you’ve answered that question, then you can move onto the next step.
That said, my only suggestion is that you read a post on here that may help you put things in better perspective:
Accept It, Change It or Leave
http://gettingpastyourpast.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/71-tftd-accept-it-change-it-or-leave/
Many angel blessings to you & your children:
SmilingAngel
Cath (197): In my early 20’s, I took up with the classic “bad boy”. I had at the time a best friend, some years older than myself, who thought the world of me. We also worked together.
One day in the bathroom at work, she caught me re-applying makeup to cover bruises around my mouth. The inside of it looked like raw hamburger.
This was after her having spent months listening to me agonize over whether this or that incident was “my fault”, whether I was being “too sensitive” or “too needy” as I tried to make sense of what I now know was blatant verbal and emotional abuse, which the evening before had finally escalated into physical battering.
My friend took my hands in hers, looked me straight in the eye with tears welling up and said the following:
“Gam, you are one of the most amazing people I know. You’re beautiful, you’re brilliant, you have so much to offer — and you’re still young. There is no reason on this earth why you shouldn’t have the world by the short hairs. And you’re pissing it all away on this a-hole.
I love you dearly. Your friendship is so important to me. ” Then she took a deep breath, raised herself up to her full height of 4 feet, 11-1/2 inches (that half inch was important, trust me), fixed me with a penetrating, steely-eyed stare and said, “Which is why I am telling you right now, that I love you too much to be able to stand by and watch while you let this two-bit piece of sh!t use you as his personal punching bag. Watching you allow this to go on is too painful for me and I refuse to take it. It HURTS me right in the heart, bad, because I love you that much. So if you think I’m going to stick around and continue to watch you wallow in self-destruction, you’ve got another think coming. I’m not telling you to leave him now. I am telling you, you need counseling. I am simply saying that unless you are willing to at least START taking some action about this, I’m afraid I cannot continue to be your friend. And I’m not kidding around, here.”
She gave me the number to an agency that took patients on a sliding scale.
I was dumbfounded. Not by her words; by the intensity of her emotions. She wasn’t saying “it’s him or me.” She wasn’t judging me as being foolish or weak for getting myself into such a situation. She was simply saying that I was important. I mattered. To somebody other than “him”. I saw clearly that my failure to matter to myself was causing her to suffer; that I mattered enough to her to put her in a world of pain; and that she mattered enough to HERself to put a stop to such nonsense if I wouldn’t.
I made that appointment. I took that first step. And I’ve been walking ever since. Cancer took her from me about a decade ago, but plenty of days I feel her walking right beside me. Pretty sure she’s the reason I’m still here walking anywhere at all. And one day here pretty soon, pretty sure she’s going to see me get a firm grip on those “short hairs” of the world she was talking about.
I don’t know your situation, I don’t know your friend’s situation. What I do know is this: I’m alive because my friend loved me enough to call me on my BS excuse for taking a one-way trip down Destruction Highway, and because she loved herself enough to refuse to ride shotgun.
Mightn’t apply to your situation, but maybe someone else here will be touched by her courage.
God I miss that woman. :)
Thank you for your comments about my friend who resides in Baton Rouge. Sometimes it takes a good friend to look us in the eye and tell it like it is. I have tried that tactic with my friend…even have gone to the extent to quell her monetary excuses of not being able to afford therapy by saying that I would pay for it myself. Like a hamster on a treadmill, she keeps on running and running and repeating the same patterns. After discussing this issue with some of my best friends, one good friend has suggested to me that I am receiving nothing from the friendship. My Mom has alzheimers,and I am married. On the weekends, my son will tend to my Mom so that my husband and I can at least have some couple time. In the past, I did get this friend to come over and help me with my Mom. Though I did pay her, she never let her husband know that I had compensated her for it. I also have paid for her to have her hair highlighted, cut etc. and it cost a lot more at her place than it did at the one I go to. In a way, I have allowed myself to become a surrogate sister..and my motivation may be because my own sister was killed in an auto accident many moons ago,and she and I were very close. My sister’s husband was not abusive,but not very loving either..at least, from what I knew. Perhaps I have played the role of the rescuer to my own detriment. With my Mom, who now lives here with us, for the past 5 years, I can count on one hand how many times my friend has been able to actually “rescue” me. The abuse trickles over towards me, also, when she tells me things that her husband makes up or says just to make me also feel bad. I told her the other day that she needs to make changes..etc. and that everything will stay the same UNTIL she decides to do something. To be quite honest, it is what I am beginning to think of as a one way relationship. I have gotten angry with her..which seems to be her biggest fear…the fear of being rejected at all..by anyone. She told me that she trusts very few people. I know that I have done and said all that I can,and until and unless she gets a backbone, what more can I do ? I also believe that her husband recently killed their daughter’s dog either during or after our most recent hurricane. His hatefulness is actually criminal. He can do anything he wants to,and she isn’t supposed to ask questions..he can stay out all night,and she is not supposed to wonder where he is, or what he is doing. However, if she goes out with me, or just comes over for a visit here, she gets cell phone calls,and then calls and checks in with him. Most of the time he is angry that she is gone..as he uses her to do much of the grunt work with his bonsai business locally. It does bother me very much that the world believes that he is “Mr. Nice Guy”…but, I know that I can’t change or really do anything. I just was reading about toxic people,and I do kind of think that my friend almost gets an emotional “high” from the drama,but I could be wrong. I read that one can get addicted to feeling bad all of the time. If that is the case, she is bringing me down too..and thank God, I have medication that I take that can help me. I am bipolar,and this is truly getting to the point where some days I have to take more medication..as anyone can see, it’s now after 4 a.m. as I type this. Today was just one of those days. I do need to take care of Cathy. It bothers my husband that my friend seems so needy…but, he understands the situation. My goal is to “help” her,but in order for her to actually change her situation, I think that remains to be seen. I do appreciate the comments,and the insight of others. It seems that I have written an epistle again. BTW, I joined a grief and recovery center locally to help me in my quest to “get over” the death of my only sister.
The Oprah Show that aired featuring only men as verbally abusive was the most ridiculous travesty of reality that I ever saw. Oprah is revealed as a fraud for pretending not to know that the most verbally abusive creature on God’s green earth is a black woman.
Being a brother, I don’t know how it is in the white community, though I suspect it’s pretty much the same, but I sure as hell know that for a fact coming from where I’m from.
susangpyp, you bring me data that says that MOST emotional abuse happens by men and I’ll change my post. Until then go…
I almost said something verbally abusive, but I stopped.
Reading this post and all the comments has been a great help. I am 6 weeks out of 3 years of… Insanity? It was ‘his decision’ in the end but I think he knew that the writing was on the wall. I’m unemployed and crashing at my parents’, but I feel like such a weight has lifted. I am trying to understand what happened, and why things went on as long as they did.
When I met him I was on a high. He was taken with me from the first, and I was flattered. He was friendly, funny, attentive, and I fell for him. It was always up and down, but there was a time that was relatively good for us, I think because we each had our own lives and some perspective. Then, in a matter of weeks, I lost my job, my flat (in a fire I was lucky to escape alive), and learned that both my parents were seriously ill. I moved in with him.
He was curiously unconcerned by what had happened to me. Then he announced, off-hand, that he had accepted a job in another country. I was hurt that he didn’t want me to share in the decision-making. I felt utterly rejected, and told him so. Everything seemed to be falling apart at once.
Threatened with the end of the relationship, he told me that he loved me, that he knew he was scared of commitment but wanted to be someone better, the person I deserved. For a few short months, he did everything he could to make things work.
Gradually, though, it became all about ME being better. I needed to change, often in impossibly conflicting ways. I came to feel like I was always failing – when I succeeded, the bar was raised. At the same time, my need for emotional support and sympathy was ignored, and as I was isolated he was my only source. My feelings were denied with blank statements like “I can’t understand why anyone would feel that way”. The more warped it got, the less I talked to anyone else about it. History was rewritten, often in the most bizarre ways, to prove that I didn’t really care for him, had no interest in his culture or family, was scared of new experiences. The implication was always that he knew me better than I did – I was denied a voice.
There was enough good remaining to prompt me to quit my job and move to a new country to be with him. I may have been naive, stupid, but I had been denying and internalising my doubts for so long, I was sure they were by-products of the distance.
But. Here I was in a foreign country, learning the language, all for him. I was berated like a child for things I did and said ‘wrong’ – at random intervals to keep me on my toes. When I was glum about my progress, I would sometimes be reassured, sometimes not, but whatever I said would later be used against me. Requests for help with daily life were seldom met – google it, I was told. I was tired all the time, began to despair of finding a job (or one good enough for him!), see everything as pointless and insurmountable, began to be scared of socialising, started to cling to him and demand attention in a way I never have.
The thing about my new start, though, was that it took away the excuse that my depression sprang from all the things I’d been through, and took away the excuse of the long-distance. I began to think the unthinkable: what if it’s him…? I flew off the handle one day while being ‘told off’, and voiced these fears. Two days later he ended it, with the words “I’ve realised that I can’t change you”. He told me he had never loved me. ‘Our flat’ became ‘his flat’, and I was on the next plane.
I am so sad to no longer be in a city I was coming to love, but with distance I see how the relationship was eating away at my self and my right to be me. I am not perfect but I deserve to be loved for who I am, not moulded into an automaton or a doormat. The clincher for me was that the inevitable overdue emailed ‘apology’ implied that he was a “prisoner” of a “pattern” of behaviour – nobody who believes that can ever change. Single, jobless squatter that I may be, I’ve got myself.
I believe that I am in an abusive relationship…what am I saying, I KNOW I am in one. Just this morning at 6am was yet ANOTHER fight…You see I have to wake up my boyfriend for work (usually around 5:30am) now when the alarm keeps going off and I keep telling him it is time…he get VERY angry. At about 5:50 (only 20 min before he has to leave for work) he gets up in a fuss, comes out of the shower and starts to argue with me…telling me I am a fu**ing idiot, stupid bi**h..the whole nine yards!! Now, this is an normal occurance for me. Whenever I (and I say I becuase that is what he says) gets him upset, he goes off calling me all the names in the book, usually stupid, idiot, loser, and then the curse words. He has also been physical (choking, twisting my arm when I try to stop him from leaving, throwing things at me, breaking things…he broke 2 remotes in one week, and he broke the middle console to MY car). I sometimes feel that it is my fault, like I deserve it, that I push him too far (which I think I sometimes do)…but the problem is that we have been together for 2 years, in those two years I caught him in bed with a 17 yr old (we broke up for 6 mo), then he was “hanging” out with some other girl (which I left for a month), but we are back together and i feel like i am living in hell. He is also a liar, steals things and is an alcoholic. I know all of you reading this are saying “RUN” but it is very hard. I can’t explain why but I guess I depend on him (his income, his love when it is there, his company). As i write this I truly feel like a loser. I just do not know what to do anymore
oh as i read more posts i remembered that i forgot a few things…he also has said that he will kill me, that he will kill himself or someone else when he gets angry. I know he has some psychological problem and I have dealt with depression (when we were broken up for those 6 mo I got drunk one night, went to his house, fought w him and decided to crash my car into a telephone pole because I got that upset) . I KNOW that we are not compatible. I am scared that if we last longer one of us will end up dead. Yet I still want to stay. I am very confused and writing today because i need to get all of this out and no one will listen anymore.
In nursing school, we were taught that empathy is one of the most important tools in life and in our chosen field. In my situation, I am so empathetic towards my dear friend and others..sometimes I forget about my own issues of caring for my 88 y.o. mother, who now has full blown alzheimers.
No matter who you are, or what your situation, I would urge you to seek help. Many people start simply by telling a friend. After a while, though, your friends find that they can’t change the situation that you are enmeshed in..and then it’s time to face the situation head on. Please believe in yourselves that you do have the power and the authority to do what is needed.
Several years ago, in my marriage, my own husband used the “d” word. We had been having some of our own issues,and he unthinkingly threw the word “divorce” into the argument. It hurt me very much,and I called him on it. The following day , I told him that I had given it a lot of thought,and if that was what he wanted, I would not stand in his way. He then changed his tune..so to speak, and said that he only used that out of anger and frustration.
Words can be used as weapons, or they can be used to help us feel better or to heal.
In every place, there are support groups and therapists. If you , whoever you are, feel that you are in a no win situation, or that you are trapped by fear..as in the case of my friend, it takes a lot of courage to do the necessary things in order to improve your life. You have to believe that NOT ALL relationships are full of anger and hate.
No marriage or relationship is truly perfect..but, it seems that some people are ” content in their misery” and find it easier to wallow in self pity ..repeatedly, than to make a plan to get out while they still can. I have found myself a product of marital neglect..it’s not really overt abuse,as some have spoken of here,but being ignored at times…and I am seeking therapy for my issues. I am learning to be strong..strong enough that even I have to admit that things haven’t been right with my own situation either.
There are many types and kinds of abuse. Even neglect is a form of abuse..if you are neglected and vulnerable.
Get help..follow in the footsteps of those who have been brave..get professional help..no matter what the cost. It will be worth every penny IF it is a good therapist or a very good lawyer.
Life truly can be better…and it begins today.
Lauren: you need to get out. Please call 1-800-799-SAFE.
he tells me i start the fights, that i am abusive too…and sometimes i think he is right but i know better than that…i know that physical abuse is wrong. I am so cunfused and scared…we are living in a motel right now because we got kicked out of our apt we shared…my boyfriend stole and drank all of the liquor $300 worth…we are now supposed to move into an apt this week but i am scared too…just tonight i found him drunk when i got home (he took change and some scratch off tickets from my spare purse and spent it on booze)…i left for a bit and he was on the phone w someone and being sketchy…since he has cheated before i assumed he was talking to a girl..he yelled, called me names, spit at me and came after me…i dont know what to do. i want to leave but if i do he threated to find out any apt i rent and he will tell them lies about me, he tells me i wont find anyone who will put up with me if i leave him…i know this is not true but like i said before i am scared he will desrtroy my things and hurt himself or me if i leave him
I read the posts above and all I can do is cry. I make excuses over and over why I stay. He has slapped me but only once. He will not do it again? I feel in such turmoil as soon as I begin to trust in our relationship something happens(he calls me idiot,stupid, your such a b, slut, whore, you dont deserve to be engaged to me). He blams everything on me. I was to bossy and controling that day and it was my fault he got mad.
we have a little girl and there are times I dont want her because I feel so trapped. He told me that he could replace us both by being with someone else.
After reading this I know what I must do but I am so scared.
I cant seem to find a someone to talk to who will not judge me and make me feel even worse about myself.
My close friends tell me that when he is away at camp I am a much happier person. That hurts so much. I was in a verbally abusive relationship in the past. I got out because I was sexually asaulted and my boyfriend at the time told me it was my fault.
I swore to myself this would not happen again I swore I would not let it. I was single for two years. I moved away to find myself and I met him. He was amazing and still can be but it is so painful.
How do you go about finding a person to talk to that will not judge.
lauren and leena,
take a moment to read the posts here. You will hear your own story over and over, but at different times on the time line, from different people. You need to keep yourself safe, and leave. Truly, that is the only next step. Abuse only gets worse. End of story. No happy ever after, no improve, nothing. Your hope is best redirected back to you , and the new life you can build, alone. Please be careful, you are worth it.
Thank you so much for this post. It hit home so much for me, and is helping in my healing process.
I came from a dysfunctional family of verbal and physical abuse; some of the most hurtful things a father can say to his daughter in her formative years – the constant threats to throw me out of the house, the constant threats to divorce my mother, and the scars those have caused over the years.
Somewhere midway of my most recent relationship, I realised I picked my father in this man – someone who alternated ‘ I love you ‘ and ‘ You are not good enough, I want to sleep with other women ‘ – all in a week. Someone who used hurtful words to have control, someone who faulted me even for the things he did.
I grew up in an environment where abuse was normal, boundaries never respected and everything was my fault; and I bought the lies, and lived my life in the shadow of those lies.
As much as I keep my father at a distance for his behaviour and treatment of me, it was ironical when I had my A-ha moment that I chose the exact behavioural clone in my ex, to treat me badly like my father did.
Thank you so much for this post and making the realisation hit bulls-eye.
Love.
PS:
In the words of Moving on – Good riddance to bad seeds! My only sadness is that he is now out there ready to hurt some other unsuspecting girl.
yes,..vicious cycle…mine is deep in remorse…when i told him i was leaving last year….he switched gears….but i feel it there beneath the surface….after 15 years of abuse…..now a year of him being kind….he’s told me he’d kill me two different times if i left….it is very confusing for me…why is he being nice now? how can i even feel anything for him now. i mean i do….i don’t want to hurt him….but i recoil from him…..he doesn’t know me at all….i tell him nothing….how is that a marriage….i am mad that all this time of me pleading with him…begging him..chasing him…..then i quit…and i just took the abuse….silently….and that went on for years….and i do…i don’t even know if i can call it abuse…just him being mean all the time…yelling…pushing me away…and now….he is being happy and nice and kind…it’s the money….if i leave he loses alot….and i can feel him….willing to do anything to see that doesn’t happen….if the day ever comes when i say i am leaving…i guarantee the monster will return. this year…as i distance myself from him….he asked me one day…..what was wrong with me….i told him…we were dead in the water….he told me to just get over it…..i said i can’t….i asked him….why did you threaten to kill me if i left? he said…and i quote…”till death do us part”…..and laughed….gave me chills….again he told me to get over it and said…”you know i would never kill you…”
yes..i have lots of excuses…..my fault…my fault…and the biggest one? will i repeat this pattern? yikes.
that is the one thing my affair taught me..is that there are people out there who WILL love me. LOVE me. For REAL. I never knew what it was like to just be loved for me….someone who was kind and loving….who looked at me…like i was important….someone who didn’t want to destroy me…
I have plans now….will i implement them? I hope so…it’s the only way…
Good luck to you in the same boat….do it now….don’t wait till you are my age…how to be strong???? i don’t know….somedays it’s easier just to hide in the dark….
you’ve made a good start by coming here….read…search the internet….”DO”…and pray….good luck….
Wow, I’m so glad I saw this on line. Each and every story is my story! I was in a verbal and mentally abusive marriage. I got out in time…just when our 4 year old daughter was showing signs of stress from all the yelling/swearing/screaming, etc…etc.. One day she saw me in tears and she put her hand on my back and said “Mommy, don’t listen to him”…I couldn’t believe what I had just heard! It hit me at that moment I could not (would not) allow my sweet baby girl to bear the burden of having to take care of her mother. I formulated a plan. ALWAYS have your own checking account. Just do it and don’t feel guilty about it like I did (at first). I didn’t have much money but I was able to leave. That was 3 years ago. Things are good now but unfortunately my ex and I have 50/50 custody of our daughter. I’m still working with my lawyer to try to reverse it but in my state it’s VERY difficult to do so. My daughter is doing well….her dad is a good dad…thank god. I pray every day that he will not begin abusing our daughter…
Dear friend,
my wife suffers. She was sexualy abused by her uncle during 12 years: from 2 till 14 years old. She is 35 years old now.
i suffer too. i live with her sufferring.
B.J.
Oh boy! What a good teaching page, good job!
I, too, have had some of the same experiences. First marriage, over 30 years ago, well, we brought out the worst in each other. He had promised to change when we married and I know now, that he should have IMPROVED, not change into a monster.
And then, it dawned on me this year that this abuse in my life- was started with my own dear mother- Prime example: when I found the right fellow to marry, during the wedding, someone had burglarized their home. Instead of getting angry at the burgular, she screamed that it was my fault– because if I had not had the wedding, she would have been home. YIKES!!! Funny thing, when my kids were little, they would say “grandma sure doesnt like you, huh? She is always yelling at you.”
And when my youngest child had been found with pot, and she found out, she accused ME of supplying him! I am the only one of her brood that does not smoke, drink, and I also have two college degrees.
So, now, I have boundaries set inplace. From now on, any discussiion with her will be short to the point and never personal. Period. She has chosen to try to make me her scapegoat for all that has gone wrong with her life, well, now, she can use my absence from her life as another reason to be angry. and when she starts to veer, I leave her presence.
And I hope and pray that my children have learned how to set boundaries in their relationships.
Can I really be in one of these relationships? Yes…I have been told by more than a few counselors that I am in a verbally abusive relationship and have been for 13 years. Things have changed though and he quit drinking and is really trying to be nicer.
It used to hurt me so bad and I used to cry from the harsh words or when he made me feel stupid or like I did everything wrong. Now I just get mad and withdraw. I stay away from him. I still avoid situations that would bring a harsh comment or smart remark. He knows that he used to be mean to me and doesn’t want to continue that. The problem is that I am always waiting for the ugliness to come back. After years of learning to be careful about what I do, what I buy, what I say, I can’t seem to stop. He tells me that he won’t act that way anymore but I can’t really trust that. Now the fact that I can’t get over it is what is ruining our relationship and of course, this is all my choice, my doing, I am leaving him… That is what he says. He wants me to be intimate but how can I..really? I don’t feel safe because I am always waiting for the shoe to drop.
Do any of you know? Will I ever be able to be normal with him again? I don’t know. I am here right now for the children and because I am scared of my life without him? I know that there is something really wrong with me. I am not the same strong person I used to be. Now I can’t make a decision to save my life. My entire house is undecorated because I can’t seem to use my own mind to choose what I would like without thinking about what he would say about it.
I pray all the time that I can forgive but would that even make a difference? My behaviors and defenses are already there. I don’t even know if it is possible to get over all the bad, scary situations so I can trust him again. I don’t even know if I can love him again.
PKA You have yourself a tough situation, should I stay or should I go? Reading your post I see you have identified that you are NOT YOUR STRONG SELF ANYMORE! You have a 13yr union going on there and there are many posts here to read and you can gain some insight, knowledge and support from others here in the community. The support here is second to none and I am glad you found us. We have all been where you are and we are all on our journeys to find our peace and happiness that we so richly deserve. It is hard work and the process can be gruelling, BUT, there is a wonderful life waiting at the end, and for me, that is my goal, get well and find true love, in a healthy manner for the first time in my life. Read, Post, and good luck with what you decide. We are here!!!!!
But of course you don’t trust him PKA, and of course you don’t feel comfortable being intimate. He hurt you and he knows it. You both know it. In my opinion you are worth someone who NEVER would hurt you … and when you eventually believe that you will work out a way to get out of this situation. You are starting to think about it … your feelings of anxiety and fear are your NORMAL reaction, you feel jittery about it because you don’t trust your own NORMAL REACTIONS TO BEING HURT anymore. This is what abuse does. You don’t even know your own mind anymore. Of course you don’t trust him, why should you? If anyone else in your life hurt you that much would you maintain an intimate relationship with them? Of course not. Your feelings of hurt and pain are your survival instinct trying oh so hard to help you … and when you stop ignoring those messages they are giving you … you have a chance to build a better life.
I just don’t think anyone deserves anything less than total trust and love in an intimate relationship. Someone hurts you .. you walk … you don’t spend the rest of your life trying to work out how to trust them again … why should you? Why not find someone who doesn’t abuse you? Why aren’t you worth more than this treatment? When you get honest about it you will do something about it …
Lola
Thank you.
i was in an abusive relationship as well and i finally got out of it and found a wonderful loving man that treats me soo good.
i was wondering how do i get past the point of unloading everything on him that is bothering me and not really carring how he feels.
well now our relationship is on the breaking point because of me not letting go of the past what would i do to do that? and save the relationship that i am in with this wonderful caring loving man that has always stood by me through everything
I am 46 years old, have been married for 25 years (that is a looooong time). I just don’t know anymore. I am not completely submissive, I get very angry at the craziness and accusations now (I am hypersensitive). I have learned to control the anger and “let it just go.” So I shut down and ignore the problem. Appx 4 years ago I decided I have “had enough” this is ridiculous. I want to change my situation, but I am scared. Scared for myself, my children (15 and 12), my parents, my pets. Not just scared of harm, but the financial aspects and all that goes with divorce. I worked long and hard for everything that I have (my home, etc.) This will all be destroyed totally. I realize you can “leave” a relationship. BUT, because of my children I AM permanently tied to this man for the rest of my life, as my counselor has told me. I am not currently experiencing physical abuse, but he is capable of it once or twice in the past. I do not want to share any affection with him — one of his CURRENT complaints [so am I withholding affection] because I am disgusted by the things that he has said to me and the ridiculous accusations, insinuations, etc., etc. etc. When he comes home in the evening I cringe (so do the kids to a certain extent). There has been no MAKE UP sex or anything like that in years and years. No highs….just lows and I think that stands true for both of us. I feel like if I showed any affection at this point it would be sending the message to him that everything is okay; and it is not. He says that if I will only treat him more special and be affectionate towards him that maybe he will not have CRAZY feelings that he has. I feel I cannot be myself any more ever anywhere I go. I also feel after this long how will I EVER, EVER get out of that mind set. It is now a habit for me.? I heard one of my friends who is divorced say that her X thinks he still wears the pants in her family now —- that made me SICK to my stomach, thinking of what if that was me. OMG!!! I would leave and still have this over my head. My sickness now is if only he could find someone else and be happy, maybe he would not be so fixated on me. I had hoped that he would have an affair and find someone else so that I can move on with my life. If he had an affair I feel like I would have legitimate reason to leave in HIS eyes. He has mentioned divorce but only fleeting. I have been brave enough recently to go to counseling for myself and recommend he do the same and buy him a book to work on his problem. I told my counselor some of the ridiculous jealous accusations and told her I was embarrased to tell them. Her comment was I am not alone and she hears this all the time. I was SHOCKED that other women hear this? Very surprised. We have recently been talking about that this is not working for either of us and I personally see no resolution He admits he does not either. Deep down I think I hope he will be unhappy enough and leave and that way if it is his decision I am safe? Is that possible? Has this ever happened? If there is any light anyone could shed on this I would appreciate it. I found this site by accident and the part about the “wearing yellow” in the original article……brought tears to my eyes.
What you’re teaching your kids is that you have no choices in life when you are in a bad situation. You are telling them that financial security is an exchange for being mistreated. Not good messages. Buy the Getting Past Your Breakup book (over on the right) and read everything you can on this site and make healthy choices.
And you’re teaching YOURSELF this too Whozcrazy! Why don’t you deserve to have a great life? Why are you settling for this but also hating it? It would take a lot of courage and mean a lot of change – but it also would give you possibilities for a completely different life, based on what you want and what you love. The life you are currently living doesn’t offer you that. Making no changes at all but fixing everything is not a possibility, but making conscious, real, smart choices, that will bring some pain but also a lot more freedom and happiness – isn’t it worth it? When you decide it is you will do something different from what you are doing now. Waiting for the other person to leave … well, you could be waiting a long time. Why wait for him to live your life for you, to make it better? Why put so much faith in this guy to do this? Why not make a move yourself?
tAngoLola
Thank you both TangoLola and Richard for your responses. In every situation it sounds easier than it is, and I know it will be hard, but I have probably made more strides to set for change in a different direction in the last month than I have in years. Thank you for your support and just having someone to bounce things off of. I will continue counseling and hopefully set a plan in motion. I think this website is awesome….best I have found since I have been searching. THANK YOU. I don’t feel so alone. If anyone else cares to reply or comment I would welcome that.
Whozcrazy
Your story sounds like mine and it is a horrible place to be emotionally – I left three years ago (22 years of marriage) and have done no contact – leaving was the best thing I have ever done although it was so very tough. When I left I was nothing – I felt like I had no life, no soul, I felt like a walking dead person. My kids were also seriously impacted by the abuse (emotional mostly) and I am only beginning to see the harm and hurt that was caused by me staying so long. I tried so hard to be understanding, supportive, caring – all those things and you never, ever get repaid in any way for the investment – just more ridicule and more walking on eggshells. You deserve so much more and so do the children. You need to be true to yourself first. You are not alone, you are in the same boat as so many women but we all seem to be afraid to admit that things are wrong, that we are being mistreated, as if there is some law that says we should stay in the relationship forever.
Be strong and know that you will get through this, whichever way you decide to go.
CarolJean — I am very proud of you. I know that was a hard, but curageous thing to do. It would be easier if I had no contact, but I have a situation where I will have to have contact with him constantly still because of the age of my children and where they want to go to school and they have made that very clear to me where they want to stay in school and to participate in all of the same activities. It is a very small community. I am worried about stalking and making my life even more miserable if I decide to leave. That is all fact and I don’t know how I will be able to deal with it.
Thank you for this very helpful information. This site is exactly what I needed to make me realize that I am not the crazy one!!! I had NO IDEA I was experiencing abuse. But so many of the things said in this article have been EXACTLY what I have been living or saying.
For the longest time I just thought I was in a difficult relationship and with a little bit more work on my part things would get better. I kept wonder what happened to that wonderful, charming man that I first met? I said those exact words to a friend… “its like he is two different people”. Now I need to keep reminding myself I’ve seen the whole package. Dr Jeckel And Mr Hyde that I have been dating are actually all one person!
Every time I thought maybe it would be better to end things or take a break my boyfriend would smooth things over or ask me for another chance. A few months ago i told him I would give him another chance. Things were great for a little while and now have culminated into disaster.
One day everything is my fault and he is exploding at me. If I defend myself he becomes he victim saying that I yelled at him…. Or when I share my perspective in a conflict he tells me… no… that was not your intention in that situation. Your intention was to hurt me. I walk away thinking … how on earth can someone tell me what my intention was? But there is no convincing him otherwise.
I found myself trying to communicate on his level. Trying not to make waves. Trying everything I could to please him. (In other words not wearing the proverbial yellow shirt on Tuesday) In exchange I found myself loosing the ability to make decisions even on what to eat without experiencing fear. I found myself feeling insecure and starting to feel ugly, stupid, guilty, etc.
I’m leaving him now… no matter what… because LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO LIVE WITH ABUSE!
Good for you! No one deserves that kind of treatment. Glad you are here!
“It’s very very wearing. You become driven to prove to this person that you are a good and gentle and loving person who would never think or do anything of the sort. Your life becomes one on the defense so you never get to jump over to the offense and wonder what the hell he or she is doing.”
Yeah. Wow. True. A very demoralizing place to be. When you risk responding openly, truthfully and with vulnerability or negative feelings about concrete examples of their offensive inappropriate behaviour, and somehow you are blamed or judged and made to feel – albeit so, so subtly – that YOU are inferior for feeling devalued, unheard or disrespected. There is no real ownership, exploration. No genuine concern. And you are the “problem child” in your relationship. Or a bitch.
I gotta say: having read the above, I am inspired to veto the B word form here on in, to the end of my days on planet earth. One evening I talked on and on (NEVER should have, I see that now, beyond issuing a sentence and then ‘wait and see’) about how it was a concern to me if he held this view of women, that it was a term which was so devaluing and demeaning – classic abuser’s terminology – as if any feelings or perceptions expressed in a real way by a woman warrants viewing her as inferior. He didn’t get it. He made lame excuses, and gave resentful reassurances, but now looking back, I see he didn’t get it. And it horrifies me to say it, because I still feel so attached to him and have loving feelings. Yet I do NOT respect this man’s intelligence, when I look back on this kind of thing. And I am deeply ashamed to say that he also reveled some bogted attitudes. Nothing “overt” but enough for me to challenge him. Which he did not like, and acted very wounded and defensive when I brought this stuff to his attention. So I guess in his books, that makes me a bitch. And if I ever cried, then a “crazy bitch”.
I think that some people are never really genuinely concerned about who OTHERS are, as individuals. Because it is all about them, and their own comfort, and needing to view themselves as superior and irreproachable, because they will not face their issues honestly.
And so you are greeted with a lame vague response, avoidance, not really heard so much as “tolerated”, but all the same, blamed for being insecure or, in my case, “lacking faith”.
Oh. So on a Sunday morning when you are in my bed reminiscing about what you loved about your ex-wife, who still lives in the apt upstairs from you, then it is me who is “insecure and lacks faith”.
I bought into his oh-so-noble vision of it being about co-parenting. And now I know: whatever he declared in terms of his love and commitment to me, and wanting to move forward, at a certain point that stopped. Because it was about him. Not about sharing and exploring love. Just about his need to escape or punish his cheating exwife. What better way for a passive aggressive to get back at a cheating ex, by living in the same place and being “there but not there” and keeping those hooks in. I was so blind to all this. I wanted to trust all his loving words and intentions. My need and desire to be loved blocked all this out. I helped support this distorted reality, and took the hit for the ending (all MY fault) when I began to state my limits and boundaries.
And the truth slowly sank in. He is still a married man. I did not want to accept the pain to my ego and pride, to admit this FACT, because it would seem to me that only a woman with low/no self esteem goes for married men. That at my age, we just have baggage to contend with, and he was still reliable and honest. But now I believe that separated means Still Married. I told myself to believe him, that it was safe for me because they had been apart for three years, she cheated, it’s over, there never was reconciliation and never will be, it’s only about his child and the proximity to raise her, their lives are totally separate. Even though she lives upstairs. And he is terrified of her right to claim spousal support until the end of time. Because HE CHOSE to marry someone who did not know how to look after herself. I guess he enjoys that dependency.
And now I have come out of denial. I see I provided an escape, some comfort, a hotel really. And when I became too three dimensional, he dumped me.
But the whole time, you see, he LOVED me. And even though I felt like a mistress at times, even if the actions weren’t matching up, well, there was my big opportunity to have my childhood fantasy of making a man who wasn’t really able to be fully available to me, for me to prove otherwise, and make it different and make it better this time.
WTF was I thinking?
I must find a way to reewire myself emotionally. My happiness depends on it. I cannot keep choosing this way. I cannot keep giving myself to unworthy situations and men who, if not purposely malicious, are just so unconscious and prone to disownership, that I am bound to be blamed and left. There is NO winning. There is nothing to prove, make him see, make him understand. It has nothing to do with him. Even though it is a comfy place for me to hang out.
Thanks for listening. Thanks for being here everyone.
That last paragraph says it all really.
The way to rewire is to be good to you (see the book and blog).
There is NO winning this way is right.
You can walk out of this mess. Awareness is the key and you have that!
Glad you are here!
I am sitting in a local emergency shelter/motel having lost absolutely everything to an emotionally and psychologically abusive relationship. Physical abuse was just around the corner, as statements such as “you have no idea how much I want to punch you in the face right now…” and other indications abound.
His tactic was financial inbalance. Everything was always vague, and as is like me, throughout, I kept giving over and above what I was reasonable considering the disparity in income. Then, suddenly, one day, he announces that he’d always intended me to pay rent for putting a roof over my head…and that he has to pay all the bills…etc…Arguments pointing out the way I had contributed….the misuse of my funds for appliances…the priceless support I’d been…all fell on deaf ears. His memory is selective, and when he saw me defending myself, then I was locked into this constant refrain for years. Regardless of his learning about other men’s financial arrangements with their wives, S.Os…he would not acknowledge that the financial disparity was having any impact on me, or that I contributed what I did.
Factor in, we were in a “committed” relationship, but none of his money would go to furthering my career for “our” benefit…it was always…”I worked like a dog and never got any handouts…” and “Why should I….”
Meanwhile, I am just the opposite…I will give to others less fortunate than myself at the drop of a hat.
He had fourteen years of “sobriety” from alcohol to my five when we first met. I saw red flags right away…but ignored them. He wanted me to move in right away, we were engaged right away…and that kept being “postponed” as he would provoke a fight and I would be sent packing for my “anger”.
He always talked about how faithful he is…but he’s been intriguing with a women in the program now for months. He now goes to MY therapist, is in group, and as far as I can tell…tells them a seriously distorted view of what goes on in this relationship.
But that is neither here or there. I waited, attending 12 step sex and love addiction meetings, with everyone saying we needed to split for 90 days….but then, just like I’ve read, the abusers remorse would set in and he’d call…with promises of going to any lengths….he even said the last time…”I’ll sell my Corvette and give you the proceeds..” Did I hold him to it…did I say “Oh let’s see you do that first…” No…no, I calmly explained….”I don’t want your money…I want us to be a team…”
And came back. And now, I am jobless, homeless, my car has been repossessed, and I am in a shelter. This has been hell for my children, and when I consider him a Narcissist…I have to ask myself “and where was your empathy for your kids when you kept going back to this monster….” Huh? I must be a narcissist too if I had no empathy for how this nightmare has impacted them.
So…I ask your prayers for all of us in this situation. I ask you prayers for my children…and for all our children. I don’t know how I got this bad….and in this hole….by never protecting myself….that’’s how.
Mary
I’ve been there. You can get out and it can and will get better. You are breaking the cycle of abuse for your children. Mine had a hard time when they were little but now they thank me for that.
Don’t give up the day before the miracle. Keep going to 12 step programs, get a good sponsor, get a therapist, read all the books and then read them again.
You can do this. Glad you are here.
Hey wow Susan…you must know types like us stay up all night because your response was timely and received by me like a life preserver to the drowning. Thank you for getting back. My therapist reminds me that this is about addiction….so my lack of empathy for my children is the same as any addict…good qualities due to return or develop once addiction abated. I just have to practice my SLAA program and not have any…ANY….ANNNYYYY contact with his blondeness….(they are both blonde…Jeckyl, and Hyde…whew…!!) for perhaps forever. The look in his eyes of utter apathy and sort of “well, so you’ve finally figured me out….next….” is seared into my heart for ever…there was no love or feeling there…only impatience that this woman who raced to ERs, nurtured his child, and did what has been described…tried to PROVE her worth…was crying on his front porch when HE HAD SOME FISHING TO DO…the humor is my only defense against suicide tonight. I feel as though I am the biggest fool on the face of the earth. But that’s why these resources are so invaluable…to find out that I am not alone…and remind myself that there is a spiritual solution. Thanks again. Mary
Hey Mary,
Hang in there! I don’t know what it is to be you, and I can’t begin to know what you’re thinking or feeling right now; but please know that I admire you. I think that YOU getting yourself and your kids to a place of safety is so powerful. I hope that you know that you are NOT alone & that there is always hope. I take great comfort when I read Susan’s posts (especially when she writes, like above, don’t give up the day before the miracle). I hope that is some comfort to you, too. Please don’t give up, and know that there is a great deal of compassion (I don’t know if that is the right word) and empathetic support available. Like I said, I don’t know you, but I do know that you can do it! You aren’t alone.
In reading your entry…I have another take on the financial security thing….from my experience, there is no financial security with an abuser. Even if you are actually “provided for” meaning, you both have a rational plan that you agree and adhere to, and it functions, if you are being emotionally abused in the process, there is NOTHING secure for you. Mine used to say “I am no longer your Sugar Daddy” and I’d blink in disbelief, thinking to myself…”err…I don’t think he knows what that means.” Sugar Daddy. Right. This is a guy who basically expects the womn who lives with him without a commitment should be bringing him in a profit or windfall or something. This is a guy who gives gifts, but then takes them back…confiscates them when we are in conflict. I gave the wedding ring I bought anonymously to a young girl in the program, and he discovered it and asked her for it back. They want you to THINK that they think you’re in it for their money….because then, oh won’t you sacrifice and go without to prove them wrong…if I were in relationships for money, I sure as hell wouldn’t waste my time with this King Baby. I’d find a real Sugar Daddy and one that wasn’t so incredibly needy to boot.
Mary
Sismiss,
Oh my goodness thank you. I am so grateful for your support. I am really, all piss and vinegar aside, heartbroken, hurt, and shaking. I am too scared to pray so please pray for us all. And later, in four or five days when historically I start to feel empowered again, I will pray for all of you. I feel like even God must be disgusted.
Mary.
My apologies to Whozcrazy and Sismiss for screwing up the titles…so it seems I just respond in my response to people and don’t worry about addressing it to anyone specific. Whups. Good thing I don’t have Mr. Critical over my shoulder laughing at me as though he doesn’t ever have these blonde moments. Mary
Still up. I’ve been reading everyone’s entries. This is such an important resource for me because it keeps me in R E A L I T Y because I tend to live in fantasy as I did in childhood….thereto, to avoid the pain of my reality.
I’ve been told, and read, that the abuser’s problem is not intellect, or past trauma…that current triggers will trigger trauma, but that the implementation of power and control is a choice based upon attitude. It is the attitude of the abuser that dominates his thinking and actions.
These attitudes can be changed…for instance “women are all irresponsible children that need to be controlled.” but it is extremely rare for an abuser to be able to embrace the treatment required….because it takes ownership, and empathy. Some do recover, but it is usually those who have something vital, to their perception, at stake…such as an honest belief in a higher power, or, a keen connection to the burden and obstacles these attitudes present in their finding true happiness…and this is rare.
They must do intensive work with the victims of their abuse, and do things like sit and listen without interruption or defensive postures to the consequences their abuse has caused. This is virtually impossible to the average abusive male or female. Their egos simply won’t allow for it, and their powers of rationalizing that they really are happy are too strong.
But they lead desperate lives, and have very shallow, drama filled relationships, and they die alone. They get to the end of their lives realizing they have lived someone else’s…and that is usually the life of the abusive male they claim to presently hate. And worse, they connect that they have passed it on to the innocents watching them. And if they have even an ounce of character, they like to THINK that they are being good fathers.
But I ask you, how can you claim to be a good father when you are setting your child up to view women as about as important as a pair of old socks.
A great book I read long ago…(different abusive male, same story…) “WHY DOES HE DO THAT? A glimpse into the minds of angry and controlling men.” by Lundy Bancroft, was really helpful to me because he breaks it down simply and provides all sorts of case studies to define the types of abusive males out there…The Drill Sargeant, Rambo, Mr. Sensitive, Don Juan, Mr. “I Never Lose My Cool” etc…because there are as many different kinds of abuse as there are men and women in this situation.
Oh my God. I wish I could sleep. I have to go to a wedding tomorrow. As if going to a wedding right now isn’t painful enough. But I will be happy for them, because they deserve it. And maybe someday my head will be clear of this five year nightmare, and I will look at my partner and think…”Oh yeah, that’s right…remember that…guy…? Ugh…Jez, I hope he got help.” and then move on to giving this wonderful man in my life a great big hug.
Mary
That’s a great book but my suggestion would be to concentrate on you and know that nothing he says or does is worth one moment of your misery because NO ONE is worth that.
Work on affirmations and positive self-talk. There are posts on here about that, but you might want to look at the book as well.
And one place to start is to axe the whole “blonde moment” thing. My IQ is over 150 and I have several advanced degrees and am blonde so if you’re going to say it, make sure it’s a compliment. ;)
But seriously start to stop all the negative self talk and embrace all that you are and all that you can be.
Read Codependent No More, Women Who Love Too Much, and Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them (and my book!)
Start being good to you….that is where it ALL starts. Change that self-talk and be okay with where you are and that you are breaking the cycle of abuse.
You can do this!!!!!
Thank you for your response, and, as I said, I already read the book but was offering it to others who might like it as an additional resource. It is vital to focus on yourself, but if you think this person is normal….then you don’t know what you don’t know…and it is helpful to see how many shades of gray there are in terms of evaluating you history with an abusive partner.
I am blonde as well, with a BA in English and a Law Degree. And I find myself in the position I am in…intelligence is not the issue. No harm intended.
Keep the faith one and all. Mary
Hi Everybody!
Well…. I did it! I broke it off… AND…. soon after I got the most amazing letter saying how much he loves me and him apologizing for a mile long list of things. I must be honest it tugged on my heart strings. BUT… I have done my homework and read almost every word on this web page. If I received that email a month ago I may have been back on the crazy-go-round. But I could see it this time – the manipulation, the abusers remorse, everything! I basically thanked him for apologizing but let him know I am still moving on. I FEEL GREAT!!!! Like a HUGE weight is lifted off my shoulders. I can’t thank you all enough for the help and the support! Thank you for sharing your information and your stories. Its so powerful and life changing!
i am married and i know i messed up when we got in financial problems and didnt tell him. I thought i could fix it myself, i was scared to talk to him, he has a huge attitude problem and anger. when he gets mad he likes to throw things and break the walls, so i dunno how he thought i could feel comfortable to talk to him, but because i put us in the ruind it gave him reason to fall in love with another woman and deny it, he finally got confronted by th eboth of us and he chose to stay with me after crashing into my car. I dont know if he’s here only cause of the kids. But he continues on texting the other woman and looking for her i dont know why he does it. he gets mad at me and says i dont trust him. He likes to threaten me by saying he’s leaving or that he doesnt want this anymore but still he continues here and do so i. i dont know why i am still here. i love him but i think i am scared to walk away especially now that im pregnant with our 3rd baby. He has me like a fool cause i dont do nothing. And he still continues looking for her and lying to me.